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2010-09-28*LunchBunch*TuesNite *LunchBunchStart: 12:05:29
daviss: hello spivey Spivey: Hi daviss! daviss: how ya doing? Spivey: Fine. I have family information falling into my lap recently and it's keeping me busy. How are you? daviss: doing good! family info, thats good news to hear Spivey: Yes. One thing has begun to lead to another. I accidentally stumbled on some at FamilySearch, then entered the information from there at Ancestry and it's paying big dividends. daviss: pretty soon this year will be over and your Ga trip will be in sight for more info oh you have a tree on ancestry Seventies Soulchild: Hello Lunchbunchers! Spivey: I'm not sure about that. I have money issues to think of right now. daviss: hello there seventies Spivey: Hi Seventies Soulchild! Khathu: Hello ladies daviss: I hear ya Spivey Seventies Soulchild: Hello daviss, Spivey, Khathu daviss: hello khathu! lol Spivey: Yes, daviss, I have a tree at Ancestry. Hi Khathu! Seventies Soulchild: Oops I forgot to get my Vanilla Coke... BRB 3rdthawkins: hello daviss Khathu and Spivey Spivey: I was saying yesterday, daviss, that I just spent over $300 to renew my subscription at Ancestry. Khathu: Hello 3rd Spivey: Hi 3rdthawkins! Khathu: wow 3rdthawkins: get me a Vanilla Coke Seventies Soulchild daviss: I have never put one up.. How about you khathu, do you have a tree on Ancestry hello 3rd! Khathu: absolutely not! daviss: :o what about you third? 3rdthawkins: yes, I have a few trees on Ancestry, that's where I started I didn't know about Family tree softwares or if there were any free ones Spivey: I have found Ancestry to be extremely helpful in developing my family tree, daviss. There were family in Florida and the West Indies I would never have found were it not for the hints Ancestry gives. daviss: you must have that world subscription also spivey 3rdthawkins: yes Spivey, that's the thing about Ancestry, the hints Spivey: I do daviss. I need it. L OL. Seventies Soulchild: Ok $300 I was crying over the $170 they charged me in Jan... oh heck no! daviss: have you found family over seas Seventies Soulchild: My hints actually suck 3rd. 3rdthawkins: hello alt Spivey: Yes, 3rdthawkins, that's where I learned that many of my Georgia families worked in Florida at certain times during the year. I guess they were fruit pickers or something. daviss: lol thats me too seventies Seventies Soulchild: Oh migrant workers. alt: hello 3rd, daviss, Khathu, 70's, & Spivey Seventies Soulchild: lol sorry 'bout that daviss: hi alt! Khathu: hello alt Seventies Soulchild: hello alt Spivey: I did daviss. My nephew's ex-wife is from Jamaica, West Indies and was thrilled when I found her family information there. 3rdthawkins: yeah, alot of them do Seventies Soulchild, and I hate when they finally find a record that match an ancestry, when I had already found that record like a year or 2 or 3 years ago, and they are just now adding it as a hint Spivey: Hi alt! daviss: alt I was asking who had trees on ancestry..How about you? Seventies Soulchild: I keep ignoring the hints I don't want, like to family trees, but everytime I do a search they keep coming back up.... 3rdthawkins: yeah, Ancestry suck when it comes to their hints Spivey: I haven't had that experience 3rdthawkins. The hints I get usually develop into new leads for me. 3rdthawkins: like a lot of other things on their site Seventies Soulchild: They need more transcription corrections as well. . . 3rdthawkins: yes they do 70s daviss: out of curiosity where do the hints come from for them to "suck" as you say lol Seventies Soulchild: lol like for example they can be too general in nature 3rdthawkins: daviss, when you put info in your tree about a certain family member/ancestor, Ancestry automatically searches it's billions of records to find a match for your ancestor. But it seems like any and everything matches Spivey: daviss, sometimes the hints are totally irrelevant to the family you're researching. I imagine they scour their database based on the information you've put there. But, there are many gems in that mine, at least I have found. daviss: I see Seventies Soulchild: Another example, I searched long and hard for Elijah Washington.... found one record. I don't have anymore hits on him alt: And in my experience it depends on where you are in your research for the 'hints' to really have any value. Seventies Soulchild: None in AR or MS Its like he didn't even exist. 3rdthawkins: that may be true alt, especially if you go further back Spivey: That is very true, alt. I am glad that they don't discard the hints you can 'ignore'. alt: at my stage of reesearch Family search has been a bigger 'blessing' with their recent additions. 3rdthawkins: but there is some kind of inconsistency with their hints daviss: so it has nothing to do with how mant people are seasrching for the same name I take it mant = many Seventies Soulchild: no Spivey: No, daviss. The hints actually include family trees others have with that name in it. Seventies Soulchild: Which is annoying in many cases. Spivey: daviss, Ancestry also lets you know who else is researching the same name. daviss: so Smith and Jones would have many hints that would be over the top with hits alt: a problem, at least for me, is the commonality of many of my names, given & surnames,,, and the dates & locations where Ancestry may find matches. Seventies Soulchild: Ancestry is good for the records available. Its really up to you to do the researching and browsing through images. Spivey: Exactly, Seventies Soulchild. Ancestry only provides 'hints' and it's up to you to check them out. 3rdthawkins: hello Selma alt: Kahthu.. Tribal Pages does something similar with giving the names of TP websites where your names appear and they match with location and within a 5 year period. daviss: hi Selma! Seventies Soulchild: hello Selma Selma: Afternoon everyone daviss: they do alt! alt: Hello Selma Spivey: Hi Selma! daviss: Is that automatic or do you sign up for that feature alt: Yep daviss, when you subscribe to their monthly newsletter. daviss: oh ok thx alt Selma: BRB..phone call daviss: I need to look into that alt: last newsletter I had over 2,000 mathces on other TP websites, some were on the same person though. daviss: khathu any new info on your case with your grandparents? Khathu: none daviss daviss: alt I guess I dont subscribe Khathu: i assuming because no one follow-up or showed an interested daviss: I only get something when I add new info Khathu: you know it is the squeaky wheel that gets the attention alt: go to the EDIT feature and look at the customize section davis.. I think that''s where the newsletter info is located. daviss: thats too bad khathu Khathu: i would agree but at least i tried daviss: ok lol gonna do it now alt: ah daviss, it's undere Maintence and newsletter. daviss: Selma, have you ever heard of an old AA weekly out of Portmouth by the name "The Vine" ? puter slow bring it up alt alt: and it's every two weeks daviss, not monthly 3rdthawkins: my aunt has the same problem with the police suppose to work on her daughter's case. It's been over ten years and they haven't found anyone/anything. Bt it depends on the importance of the case to them. In their minds, this kind of stuff happens all the time and there are a lot of unsolved cases like that, so they aren't really make an effort to do solve it my aunt gets frustrated when they keep calling her just to tell her they haven't gotten anything Seventies Soulchild: At least they are contacting her 3rd. daviss: at least she gets a call 3rd. unless its a random call Khathu: i agree seventies daviss: It must be on the radar ProfessorDru: hey gang Selma: Sorry off the phone Spivey: Hi Professor Dru! Seventies Soulchild: Happy brithday again, ProfessorDru! Khathu: hello professordru ProfessorDru: Thanks daviss: mabe she should have it put on Silent Witness hi Dru alt: for overseas records.... don't overlook this LDS familysearch site.http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp Spivey: And, might I add happy birthday ProfessorDru. I didn't know you celebrated a birthday recently. 3rdthawkins: may be true, but my aunt is sensitive and this isn't the first child of her's to die, it is a real emotional strain for her alt: http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp 3rdthawkins: hello ProDru ProfessorDru: yes, it was yesterday alt: Yes, welcome,,, HI & Happy Belated B'day ProfessorDru daviss: I sent my happies yesterday Dru but I will say it again. Happy BD ProfessorDru: Thanks everyone daviss: I say that seventies was on key with her singing to you Dru lol saw ProfessorDru: lol vicky daviss: lol lol ProfessorDru: she said her best singing voice--that could mean a whole lot of things. LOL daviss: lol alt: I thought 70's hit a couple of 'flat' notes daviss LOL lOL Selma: LOL ProfessorDru: lol Seventies Soulchild: Oh y'all got JOKES! lol lol lol Hey I was in the choir! LOL Selma: Just glad you enjoyed your BD..day Khathu: have a great day everyone\ daviss: 3rd was the the person who was in Phx? 3rdthawkins: yes daviss daviss: what was the name again Selma: I was in the choir too...didn't mean I could sing Seventies Soulchild: lol ProfessorDru: My workshop was accepted at the Atlanta Family History Expos and I will also be a Blogger of Honor there. 3rdthawkins: Loretta Lindsey Spivey: Congraulations ProfessorDru! daviss: thx 3rd alt: I'm so 'tone deaf' they put me out of the church choir.. I was messing everybody up. LOL LOL ProfessorDru: thanks spivey Seventies Soulchild: Great news ProfDru daviss: Very good Prof Dru Seventies Soulchild: lol alt everybody ain't able.. lol Selma: Daviss...don't know about the Vine newspaper, but do know folks I can ask alt: I knows Seventies Soulchild, I knows LOL ProfessorDru: I will also be presenting at AAHGS. Read more about my workshop. http://findyourfolks.blogspot.com/2010/09/upcoming-workshops-at-genealogy.html http://findyourfolks.blogspot.com/2010/09/upcoming-workshops-at-genealogy.html hope the link works--it looks cut off. daviss: Selma, have you ever heard of an old AA weekly out of Portmouth by the name "The Vine" ? Seventies Soulchild: If you can ProfessorDru, post short snippets of your presentations on youtube and link in to your blog. that would be great! Selma: What is the time frame daviss? daviss: selma it was around the early twenties Spivey: It worked ProfessorDru. Selma: I could check with a friend who co-authored book on Black Portsmouth ProfessorDru: That's a good thought Soulchile daviss: A friend of mine heard that his gr grand published it Seventies Soulchild: I'm still waiting on my video from the AA CW Museum... *sigh* Selma: What was his name daviss? 3rdthawkins: hello AY Seventies Soulchild: Hello AYWalton ProfessorDru: Angela in da house!!!!!!!! AYWalton: Good afternoon, all. alt: wb AYWalton Spivey: Hi AYWalton! daviss: C C Somerville.. I don't know what C C stands for though Selma Selma: Afternoon Traveler ProfessorDru: Angela, a Super Blogger of Honor! AYWalton: Hello 3rd, alt, davisws, Ms. Selma, SoulChile, Spievy. daviss: hello Angela!! AYWalton: ProfessorDru is in da house! Greetings to all. Good to be home! ProfessorDru: Atlanta, here we come! AYWalton: I hear ya, ProfessorDru. daviss: Nothing like home is it AYWalton: I am still tired! ProfessorDru: You're a traveling woman, Angela. AYWalton: too much----I have to slow down, a bit! too tiring! ProfessorDru: Angela, I see a lot of blogger heavy weights will be in Atlanta. Looking to meeting Tom McEntee and old 'Myrt. daviss: dang alt, this is what I got for TP: lol AYWalton: is that right, Dru? daviss: Sorry, you do not have enough names on your website for us to generate a newsletter. Each website must have at least 150 names in order for the Newsletter to be of any value. The main content of a newsletter is Birthday reminders and we have found that having too few names in a site results in newsletters with very little content. When you have enough names on your site this feature will be automatically turned on. AYWalton: I have not been able to keep up while I was on the road. daviss: I need to borrow some of your names oh well alt: AYWalton, is the name 'Five Slave Holding Tribes" vs 'Five Civilized Tribes' causing any ruckus among the 'other' folks? 3rdthawkins: oops, sorry daviss alt: a get busy then daviss LOL LOL Spivey: LOL daviss. daviss: thats the one with You Know who's family AYWalton: ok back.... knocked myself out. daviss: wb AYWalton Spivey: Welcome back AYWalton. alt: okay daviss, you gotta get busy then LOL AYWalton: in answer to your question, alt. Not yet---hopefully some of them will pick up on the term. alt: I thought it was interesting that the title was even considered. Selma: Daviss...I see a Rev. Clanton C. Somerville Pastor, Bebenezer Baptist Church ...in the 1921 City Directory for Portsmouth AYWalton: I coined the term, alt. alt: okay AYWalton.. AYWalton: they don't use it. daviss: Oh so that was his name.. He was a pastor Selma AYWalton: I coined and put it on the message board. Selma: Ebenezer alt: I see AYWalton AYWalton: Others have started to use it too. Selma: Was that his name Daviss? daviss: All I know is Rev C C Somerville I think that Ebenezer was the name of his church Seventies Soulchild: Is there any other research on Native American nations. Like the Iroquios nation. We have a lot of NA around here. Selma: Home address was 812 Columia..also woman Julia Somerville, printer, and WEndell C., carp(enter)...also at the same address...wife? son? Columbia Seventies Soulchild: Alright I have to get back to work... see y'all maybe tonight. daviss: thank you Selma ProfessorDru: gotta run daviss: Angela I finally got that post up we chatted about before you left for Ark Selma: There is a picture of the church in the book on POrtsmouth AYWalton: ok I will check it out, daviss. daviss: Jimmy Carter just died AYWalton: oh no! alt: oh wow!!!!! Selma: Who Jimmy Carter...president? daviss: yes brb 3rdthawkins: what? AYWalton: off to CNN. will check in later or see you all this evening. Selma: Reporting he is hospilized daviss: back Spivey: Welcome back daviss. 3rdthawkins: I don't see it on the news alt: darn had another question for AYWalton, guess I'll try and catch her this evening. daviss: someone called me and said it was on MSNBC 3rdthawkins: either commercial or HLN is talking about Ben and Jerry now JonBenet case is reopening ok I see the ticker on Cspan2 Jimmy Carter hospitalized in Clevenad Cleveland alt: Selma, the Freedman are concerned about the status of the child following the status of the mother... Isn't that the way it was for everyone pre-emancipation? Selma: Daviss Ebenezer was founded in 1864..first Black Baptist church in Portsmouth You status is based on the status of your mother ...yes Spivey: alt, for the first time I saw a WWI Civilian Draft Registration card with the race designated as 'African' although the person was born in the U.S. 3rdthawkins: ok I see it on MSNBC Selma: CNN..is saying Carter is ill..and hospitilized daviss: hope the one that just called me got it wrong thanks Selma alt: they have some 'funny' designations on the WW I draft registartion cards Spivey .. African, Ethiopian, Nubian, etc. 3rdthawkins: every channell is saying hospitalized daviss: Spivey I have seen several like that. I think that whoever is taking info down makes their own assumption Spivey: This one is from the same family group I research in Georgia, alt, and none of the other cards show anything like that. 3rdthawkins: may a shooting at U of Texas-Austin, the shooter killed himself daviss: mabe they got that confused alt: and Spivey, if you notice on the images,, the lower corner of the AA men has been 'clipped' this was per an instruction to identified blacks Spivey: This card seems to be different alt and daviss. Here the person hand-wrote the race in. I think the other cards had a check box for race. Selma: Alt...not sure if same applies in Indian territory daviss: I have been trying to call my cousin who works on campus Spivey: Yes, alt. This one is clipped i the lower left corner. 3rdthawkins: but you know how we are daviss, the news says hospitalized but we run around talking about the person died that's how a couple of my brothers are alt: look at the 'back side' of the card image Spivey... Race & Identifying marks are liste there. 3rdthawkins: they hear or see one thing, and they run away with it Spivey: It'sd on the front side of this card, alt. The clipped edge photos on left front side and right back side. alt: Selma,, the Freedman are saying that it shouldn't be that way.. the 'status' should be that of the father. 3rdthawkins: alt is it another person putting it, or do you think the person themselves? I would think an "officer" is doing it but.... daviss: lol speaking of clipping, this company that I used to work for got busted for putting a little number system at the bottom of the applications who wanted a internal job or promotion. 1,2, 3 2 was for black Spivey: Circumvention of the law calls for invention of methods to do that daviss. alt: ???? 3rdthawkins, the WW I draft , looka at at blank 'unfilled' card example.. it clearly states 'tear of the the 'corner' of this card to indentify AA's. Ingrid_Doweary: Hey Everyone. Selma: Afternoon Ingrid.. 3rdthawkins: wow, well I didn't know that alt just asking daviss: hello ingrid Spivey: Hi Ingrid_Doweary! 3rdthawkins: hello Ingrid alt: look at a blank card 3rdthawkins 3rdthawkins: ok Selma: Alt...do the Freedmen expect that it will change alt: I've seen that done daviss, code personnel records by Race... we used to say in the Gov't Federal Civil Service .. blacks were coded as # 5 on many types of records 3rdthawkins: wow, I see that alt, alt: dunno Selma, but I'm wondering if the Tribes 'adopted' some of the 'rules' of the US Gov't .. why wouldn't the child's designation be the same as for the rest od us. 3rdthawkins: alt that seems to be only for June 5 1917 and July 5 1918 forms, not for the September 12 1918 forms Selma: They were slave holders alt...status of mother is the foundation alt: right Selma.. Spivey: Doesn't the Jewish religion follow the rule that the child's status is based on that of the mother? Selma: Being slave holders is one of hte things that made them "Civilized" alt: I've only seen an example where the insgtructions were there 3rdthawkins.. all other WW I registrations I've seen have been filled out and clipped. 3rdthawkins: that is interesting......i have to go alt: and Selma I was gonna ask.. what are the %'s of NA women having children by black fathers among the Freedman? Selma: Thats an AY question alt alt: I know .. just 'preparing' yo for a question I'm gonna ask this PM. LOL Selma: LOL daviss: lol lol @ alt alt: this is like the 'white women' having children by black men in th eother parts of the slave community.. those children were 'technically' free born. Selma: They were "free"..but not white daviss: any white women (documented) in your line alt alt: so many interesting that are yes, a couple daviss: I haven't found any yet in my lines but I would not expect to see it in Texas anyway Selma can you scan a picture of that church Selma: Well I can try... LOL daviss: lol No teenagers around lol I am off to see if I can find anything else ya'll Spivey: Bye daviss. daviss: mabe see you all tonight Spivey: I'm off too to further explore. Bye everyone. Selma: I have to run too folks... Ingrid_Doweary: see you tonite. *TuesNiteStart: 20:59:33
3rdthawkins: hello Gertie Gertie: Hey hi! 3rdthawkins: how are you? Gertie: Great, you? Khathu: Hello Gertie and #rd Gertie: So this is my first time here, so happy to see some people show up Khathu: 3rd 3rdthawkins: hello Khathu Well Welcome Gertie my cpu is a little slow, freezes up on me at times yeah, we expect to see a few come in tonite Khathu: hello alt 3rdthawkins: what surnames are you researching and where Gertie?..................hello alt alt: Hello Khathu, 3rdthawkins, & gertie 3rdthawkins: alt and Khathu, we have a new chatter alt: I see, welcome Gertie 3rdthawkins: GIBBES-PAYSON (Charleston, South Carolina) SANDERS-GARIETY (Charleston, South Carolina) HAWKINS-BRYANT (Charleston & Berkeley Counties, South Carolina) LUM-PERKINS (South Carolina) JEFFERSON (Virginia) HUGHES-COPELAND (Texas, Georgia/Alabama/South Carolina) FOUNTAIN-WILLIAMSON (Arkansas, North Carolina, Alabama) ISLEY (Arkansas, North Carolina) JOHNSON (Louisiana, Mississippi) TOWNSEND (Texas) CUMMINGS (Texas) Gertie: West and Barnhill or Barnell Actually, I'm stuck at Thomas West who married Susannah Barnhill or Barnell 29 Sept 1798 in Pennsylvania alt: Wow, you're back there Gertie 3rdthawkins: what records do you have of him? alt: Are these persons of color & in what part of PA were they located Gertie? 3rdthawkins: l have you found marriage record Gertie? Gertie: thomas was listed in some registry (sorry trying to find my note) as being a free person of color prior to the marriage, and later census state "M" which I thought was for male, but found someone online stating that meant mulatto. Thomas was born around 1794 in Virginia, Susannah about 1798 in PA. Khathu: alt - my application for SRT was not approve 3rdthawkins: hello deannie deannie: Evening alt: hello deannie 3rdthawkins: so where are you stuck Gertie? what records are you looking for? Khathu: there was questions about me not having direct evidence proofing that my ancestor was in the household of the Whitaker before 1846 Gertie: Don't have parents for either of them alt: What!!!! Gertie: found one forum posting listing potentials with no backup - person was stuck same place as me Khathu: despite the fact that i provide various sources of indirect evidences alt: oh, okay Gertie, they wern't married in 1798 this is around the time of their birth? Khathu: there was also issues regarding different spelling of the name one of my ancestor i.e Juliet, Julie, Julia Gertie: hm oops sorry yeah you're right Khathu: they are questioning whether Juliet and Julia are the same person alt: WOW Khathu, you have them in TX as slaves of the family and yet they weren't in the household.. now that is a stretch Gertie: obvious they couldn't be married same year as she was born 3rdthawkins: hello Selma deannie: Hi Selma Selma: Good Tuesday evening everyone alt: hello Selma Khathu: the first document i have which her by name is in 1854 Gertie: anyways, I did find the listing - Thomas is listed in Free Negro Heads of Families in the United States in 1830 alt: where in PA is the location Gertie Gertie: I do not have it, I can only place him married already to Susannah Barnhill living on a farm in Cuyahoga Co , OH one of the early 1800's census records Khathu: but indirect evidence - tax roll, slave schedule and probate record - provides a reasonable conclusion or "proof" that Jane was in the household prior 1846 3rdthawkins: ok is this them Gertie: Name: Thomas West Residence: Pittsburgh, Allegheny, Pennsylvania Birthdate: 1841 Birthplace: Wales Relationship to Head: Self Spouse's Name: Susan West Spouse's Birthplace: Pennsylvania, United States Father's Name: Father's Birthplace: Wales Mother's Name: Mother's Birthplace: Wales Race or Color (Expanded): White Ethnicity (Standardized): American Gender: Male Martial Status: Married Age (Expanded): 39 years Occupation: Rolling Mill NARA Film Number: T9-1092 Page: 188 Page Character: B Entry Number: 1049 Film number: 1255092 Collection: United States Census, 1880 Gertie: I only have the PA and Va from this: Hello, I've been trying to find the parents of my third great grandfather Thomas West for a couple years now. He was born in Virginia, possibly Pittsylvania co.circa 1794. He owned a farm in Cuyahoga co. Ohio, and was married to Susannah Barnhill, daughter of William Barnhill. Ooooh thank you I bet that is correct 3rdthawkins: oops, says they are white Khathu: alt - i am challenging the historian position 3rdthawkins: but you can keep it Gertie, do you have Ancestry or can you access HeritageQuest? Gertie: I don't know about HeritageQuest 3rdthawkins: hello Spivey and daviss Spivey: Hi everyone! Selma: Evening Spivey and daviss daviss: hello everybody! Khathu: hello spivey and daviss deannie: HI, daviss Spivey Gertie: haven't paid for ancestry yet as I found a free source of a lot of info in that I found a few connections who gave me genealogies or pointed me to free ones 3rdthawkins: we have a new chatter daviss deannie Selma and Spivey Selma: Welcome to the Tuesday night chat Gertie Gertie: As my Thomas West was definately in Ohio as of 1850, don't think after all he's that one cited in Pittsburgh. Spivey: Is that Gertie? Hi Gertie, pleased to meet you. Gertie: I have a picture of 1850 census record listing the family in Ohio, and as "M" for Mulatto deannie: Hi Gertie I'm and do not welcome you earlier alt: Hello spivey & daviss Gertie: Hello to everyone, sorry I haven't been greeting everyone. Spivey: Hi alt! alt: seems as if they are looking for resaons to 'exclude' you Khathu. 3rdthawkins: hello jhonora jhonora: Evening All! Gertie: I actually got stuck on ol'Thomas some years ago and just picked it up again today. And sorry, not meaning to exclude everyone. or anyone Spivey: Hi jhonora! daviss: welcome Gertie!! 3rdthawkins: that's ok Gertie jhonora: Welcome Gertie! Khathu: hello jhonora alt: I'm looking at the Book on the 1830 census now & se a Thomas West in the index on pg 125. Gertie: still sort of feeling my way through how to use this chat and how to organize my thoughts n all this data Selma: Why don't you tell us exactly what records you do have and what is the source..in order Gertie: Alt, thanks, I'd be grateful for a link. I think I can access Ancestry for free at our public library. 3rdthawkins: Gertie is this them http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html?datestamp=1210098226484#p=recordResults&alivePlaceLoc1=Ohio%2C%20United%20States&placeId=43&surname=West&searchType=close&givenName=Thomas deannie: Evening Irgrid Gertie: Thank you Selma: Evening Ingrid 3rdthawkins: hello Ingrid jhonora: Evening Ingrid 3rdthawkins: yw alt: A Thomas West is in Elkran Twp. Columbia Co., Ohio in 1830 Gertie. Ingrid_Doweary: Hey all 3rd, Alt, Daviss, Deannie, Jhonora, Khathu, Selma, Spivey and Gertie! Spivey: Hi Ingrid_Doweary! 3rdthawkins: Gertie, keep that site, you can find some real gems there for your ancestors alt: This is not a link Gertie... it is the Book itself hello Ingrid_Doweary 3rdthawkins: daviss Spivey and Selma this is what Gertie is looking for Actually, I'm stuck at Thomas West who married Susannah Barnhill or Barnell 29 Sept 1798 in Pennsylvania thomas was listed in some registry (sorry trying to find my note) as being a free person of color prior to the marriage, and later census state "M" which I thought was for male, but found someone online stating that meant mulatto. Thomas was born around 1794 in Virginia, Susannah about 1798 in PA. alt: no 3rdthawkins, not marrried in 1798, but born ca 1794-1798 3rdthawkins: right, I had copied it alt Gertie: Ok, I prior to the present, I was given a gencom file according to this file, it lists Thomas West b July 18, 1794 d May 7 1860 3rdthawkins: hello vkn alt: hello vkn Ingrid_Doweary: Hey Vkn Gertie: wife Susannah Barnhill b Sept 29 1797 d Jan 23 1873 and the file has a bunch of support vkn: Howdy friends kin and gentle people daviss: I think Selma was also asking what records Gertie had so that we wont give her the same ones.. Selma: Is the The 29 Sept 1798 date the date of the marrige to Susannah BArnhill 3rdthawkins: I did to daviss, but I think she only has census Spivey: Hi vkn! 3rdthawkins: no Selma, it is the birth of Susanna Gertie: some of it is links, some of it is actual pictures of documents in this file and I can't see all of the documents due to not having full access to Ancestry 3rdthawkins: my bad vkn: u 2 spivey jhonora: Evening vkn, didn't see you. alt: hello bgreunion Gertie: But there is in fact a picture of 1850 census showing Thomas and Susannah in Ohio alt: & jhonora 3rdthawkins: is that the only record you have of them Gertie? Gertie: cuygoha (sp?) co I then found ref I gave earlier on a forum daviss: hello bgreunion vkn: cuyahoga ohio? bgreunion: hello 3rdthawkins: and the register, right? Spivey: Hi bgreunion! Ingrid_Doweary: Hey bgreunion. 3rdthawkins: hello bgreunion Gertie: yes 3rdthawkins: ok Selma: Evening breunion welcome to Tuesday night chat 3rdthawkins: tx vkn: bgreunion howdy Gertie: Register of free heads of families bgreunion: hi vkn it's shannon Gertie: Hello to the new arrivals, sorry I am not greeting everyone as they arrive 3rdthawkins: Selma she has the 1850 census and Register of free heads of Families, I believe 1830, right Gertie alt: Cuyahoga is a large county.. this where Cleveland is located.... what township does the 1850 state they were living in? Selma: So you have a entry from a book..and an image of a 1850 census Gertie Gertie: hm lemme dig it up, I do not have that info at this moment 3rdthawkins: Independence alt Khathu: hello bgreunion, vkn, spivey, Ingrid vkn: hi lil cousin Meet my new found cousin all yall this is shannon Gertie: I have, but in my pile of data. 3rdthawkins: hello shannon vkn: howdy khathu Spivey: Shannon, vkn? 3rdthawkins: breunion Spivey Selma: Gertie..you need to see if you can get access to Ancestry at your library... vkn: yassus ms spivey 3rdthawkins: oops bgreunion Spivey alt: INdependence twp. is just south of current day metro cleveland. daviss: hello there shannon aka bgreunion bgreunion: hi back at y'all Spivey: Thanks. Hi brgreunion, pleased to meet you. Selma: and print out the info you find from the different census forms..and track this family Ingrid_Doweary: Hey shannon aka bgreunion. Gertie: According to the reference to the Free Negro Heads of Families in the United States on afrigeneas.com, left on the board by Sandra VanOrman, Thomas owned a farm in Cuyahoga County, Oh Khathu: daviss i am fight with SRT over my membership application Spivey: LOL. I like your style bgreunion. vkn: Spivey bgreunion is in my KING BARNES research Gertie: First child Enos West Spivey: Okay vkn. bgreunion: I'm searching dor Arthur barnes of jax co, FL Gertie: Sorry, if someone else needs help, I can step aside for the rest of the chat Spivey: vkn does bgreunion have to use maps too? Gertie: I may be taking up too much of the available resource alt: and from the census record you getting the location of the birth State(s), right Gertie? How are you coming up with the actual dates? Selma: In what time frame for Arthur BArnes in Florida 3rdthawkins: you're ok Gertie, there's enough people around to help both Gertie: Ok, according to the file I was given, the birth dates are supported, but I am unable to view the documents bgreunion: having trouble reading 1900 census for dates.. Selma: Oh really Khathu? vkn: YOU betcha spivey and you will find one on AfriGeneans Talking lol lol lol Gertie: they are ancestry links Khathu: yes - Spivey: Gertie: I got nothing on how they traveled to Ohio except to say there seem to have been a lot of people coming to Ohio from Pa and Virginia in that general period Ingrid_Doweary: bgreunion, have you seen a blank 1900 census form? vkn: I could not help myself sorry bout that spivey tee hee hee Khathu: Issues with the different rendering of the name Juliet, Julie and Julia Selma: Many free blacks went to Ohio Gertie Spivey: bgreunion: yes vkn: lol Gertie: Makes sense, Selma Also, as a side comment 3rdthawkins: Gertie, Selma and alt are the best people to talk to about free people of color and migration we have another, free, but she searches in NC Ingrid_Doweary: Good, you may be able to use the blank form to assist you in reading the column headings. Gertie: family lore is some of the members of my family on the west side were on the underground railroad jhonora: I'se be free too, 3rd. Khathu: not having direct evidence showing Jane was in the household of the Whitaker prior 1846 Gertie: no one living has any specifics, but it might help explain somewhere some of this is just my odd guess 3rdthawkins: jhonora I was speaking of freeainnc but it's hard to spell her full name lol Gertie: I do have a secondary question, and that is...how valuable is Ancestry? ancestry.com I mean 3rdthawkins: jhonora is good with his research for tha time period also Gertie alt: that's cr*p Kahthu.. you've supported the Whitaker situation very well and for so-called genealogist to get hung-up on spelling smells like a 'rat' to me... IMHO LOL Gertie: When I search it, I get tons of entries that I can't even tell if they apply, but if you pay does it become easy to search? vkn: Very valuable from where I sit Gertie how have you found it Selma: At this point for you Gertie..I would say it is valuable...you need to be able to see these documents and allt he census records 3rdthawkins: it can be real valuable Gertie if you know how and where and what to search, Afrigeneas also is good if you leave comments on the boards Khathu: i know but i am writing a nice response use the genealogical standard of proof Gertie: I was kinda planning to go trial it free at the library and see if it was helpful That's wonderful news. vkn: A good plan gertie Gertie: Everything I have so far, I got for free just going to free resources, leaving forum posts, emailing people and asking for copies of their files Selma: Did Thomas west and Sussanh have children? 3rdthawkins: ok Mike Singletary alt lol lol rofl alt: there is no question about the usefulness and value of Ancestry Gertie, but as we keep asking you need additional evidence to support the clues found on ancestry. Gertie: Enos West born about 1820, d july 10 1869, married Sarah Priscilla Price Followed by 3rdthawkins: yeah, I see Enos and Priscilla on the same census 1850 as Thomas West and Susan Gertie Selma: Gertie you seem to be working from the late 1700's and working forward...thats not a good idea alt: the 1830 census states there were 7 persons in the household of Thomas West. Gertie: Nancy, Ruth, Susannah, Delilah or Deliah, Ephraim, Aaron, Thomas H, Mary Jane, John by 1830 should show... alt: Ancestry will give you the age breakout & gender for each person Gertie. Gertie: Enos, Nancy, Ruth, Susannah that I know of Selma: But not names of children in 1830..names of all in household don't appear until 1850 Gertie: hm ok well I only have confirmed birthdates of a few of the children If we go with stair stepping 7 is about right 3rdthawkins: Selma I think she already done research going back, her problem is finding the parents of Thomas and Susanna, that was her query before we started asking questions Gertie: So, question, does 1830 census denote race? 3rdthawkins: asking questions Selma made it appear she is going forward Gertie, 1830 tells how many free whites free blacks and slaves are in the house or I should say free whites and slaves Gertie: Funnily enough, and you will laugh I'm sure, but this is the first reference I've seen to us having African American history, but thinking back, I have seen pictures of George Washington West, Thomas and Susannah's grandson. I never thought to question why he looked awfully dark. 3rdthawkins: well Free males and Free females, that's what is asks Free white males free white females Gertie: clarifying, I guess, if 1850 census called the family mulatto and they were listed in the Free Negro Heads of Households...wouldn't someone in the mix be African American? Ingrid_Doweary: Isn't indentured whites opposite of 'free whites'? alt: Ancestry gives age,gender & race of free blacks in 1830 census. Gertie: hm suppose that's so, best I can picture it, slave or indentured sure wasn't free 3rdthawkins: a parent could be Gertie, or a grandparent, or somewhere going backwards somebody was alt: if in Ohio they were 'legally' free.. Ohio was never a slave State. 3rdthawkins: wb Selma vkn: wb selma Ingrid_Doweary: WB Selma. Spivey: Welcome back Selma. Gertie: Well, I thank you all for helping. I'm gonna have to make that trip to see what the library has very soon. Selma: White folk are free whether they are indentured or not alt: Gertie, I have ancestor of color in Ohio as early as 1810. Selma: There is no census column for indentured white folk 3rdthawkins: you are welcome Gertie Gertie: ah ok thanks, Selma Selma: So you thought this family was White......... If he is free black then you have to determine how he became free.. Gertie: well, let me put it this way. I'm white. Thomas would be my 4 greats grandpa Selma: Whether born free or emancipated by will or deed Gertie: Or at least I look white lol Selma: Ummm... Gertie: sorry, is this bad to say here? Spivey: Welcome back bgreunion. vkn: wb bgreunion 3rdthawkins: to Selma yes wb begreunion Gertie: I actually think it sounds kind of cool alt: and there 'should' be papers of registration as a FPOC in some courthouse in Ohio if they came into Ohio from a slave state. Ingrid_Doweary: Wb bereunion. Selma: To you 3rd...I have been doing this long enough to know better Gertie: OK was that normally done in the county where they settled, alt? 3rdthawkins: :} Selma: Welcome back bgreunion Spivey: Stealth it is Gertie. alt: yes Gertie bgreunion: vkn-looks like Arthur B was born in 1868 in FL Gertie: And 2 is there any online source of these documents? Otherwise it will have to wait until I next visit Ohio Selma: No it would be done in the ocunty in which they were emancipated..but in OHio they would have to register or freed..Thomas could have been born free Gertie: Interesting vkn: Selma we never too seasoned to learn lol alt: Ihave the manumission papers AND the FPOC registration for my AA ancestors who came into Ohio ca 1810. Ingrid_Doweary: Selma, I'd like your feedback on the following link, http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/awhhtml/awlaw3/slavery.html Selma: YOu need to get Ancestry and see who this family is identified in later census records..to determine when they Passed How this family Cause they Passed alt: even so Selma.. if born free the need to have papers from the State they left stating the were born free. 3rdthawkins: hello AYwalton AYWalton: Good evening all. Ingrid_Doweary: Hey AY! bgreunion: vkn-Arthur & Lucy were married in 1887 Gertie: thaks for that link, Ingrid daviss: bgreunion is that Love Barnes vkn: HEYYYYYY AYW AYWalton: hello 3rd, alt, bgreunion, daviss, deannie. Gertie: thanks* Spivey: Hi AYWalton! Ingrid_Doweary: You're welcom, Gertie. Selma: Yes...they would thats why she has to find the records in VA and in Ohio AYWalton: Hello Gertie, Ingrid, khathu, Ms. Selma, Spivey. alt: hello AYWalton daviss: hello AYWalton bgreunion: hello AY love you youtube videos... AYWalton: Hey hey hey, it's honoray! Ingrid_Doweary: welcom=welcome. AYWalton: Greetings, VKN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Khathu: Hello AYWalton AYWalton: thank you bgreunion! Gertie: Hello, AY vkn: Sounds like you having good time away from home AYW alt: I also have free born AA's from NC who came into Ohio ca 1815 and they had to prove they were FPOC in NC prior to settling in Ohio. Gertie: Any chance this chat can be accessed via something like mIRC client, btw? Ingrid_Doweary: Yea AY. I plan to send a link to your 'Beginning Genealogist" videos to two of my cousins. AYWalton: I had a great time, but glad to be home. Khathu: How would you response someone questioning the rendering of Juliet, Julia, Julie not being the same person Gertie: alt, that sounds complicated for them bgreunion: daviss-don't know Love barnes vkn: I hear that AYW Khathu: as a list the individual is list as Julia but during freedom she is listed as either Julia or Julie AYWalton: feel free to, Ingrid_Doweary. daviss: ok I just saw an arthur in 1900 with a Love Barnes alt: it was meant to be 'complicated' Gertie, even tho' Ohio was a free State they weren't welcoming AA's with open arms. Ingrid_Doweary: Thanks, AY. Gertie: this brings up another question for me daviss: I am with alt on that khathu, something smells fishy alt: ask them about 'nicknames' Khathu Gertie: Susannah Barnhill was white, is it possible they went to Ohio because interracial marriages were accepted there? Selma: The various spellings of names is not unusual... alt: now that is likely Gertie.. that was the case with one of my lines from NC.. a free white woman and her slave came to Ohio after she had a child by the slave in NC. bgreunion: daviss-in Jax Co FL? alt: Khathu .. all of the variations there are for Margaret, Elizabeth and Sarah they shouldn't have an argument with Julia, Juliet or any other version. Selma: Khathu...documentation has Julia and Julie being the same person after emancipation 3rdthawkins: I just don't think they want you there Khathu Khathu: yes Selma Gertie: I really appreciate all the help here. It's really kind of everyone. daviss: yes bgreunion Prec 10 Khathu: In fact she got married as Julia Whitaker in 1888 but filed for divorce as Juliett Whitaker 3rdthawkins: no prob Gertie, you can come anytime vkn: what is name daviss alt: we like to help Gertie, but we can ask what seem to be 'pointed' questions to get to the heart of the matter. bgreunion: daviss-that's Lucy,he's wife his wife daviss: : Name Age Love Barnes 32 Sue Barnes 28 Louis Barnes 13 Willie Barnes 9 Cherry Barnes 5 Arthar Barnes 3 alt: those twodocuments in thenselves should be 'clinchers' in my opinion Khathu Khathu: i agree but you know they want a brother to fight to get in alt: the marriage and the divorce records vkn: Cherry is an often used name with BARNES daviss and bgreunion alt: my concern from jump street remember LOL Selma: Gertie..how do you know Sussanh is white is she listed as such on 1850 census deannie: HI have to run have a great everything Selma: Put on your Boxing Gloves Khathu...LOL Gertie: I have a picture of her as an old lady daviss: mabe that is who you are looking for bgreunion alt: throw THEIR rules back at them Khathu and as you've stated use the GSP Gertie: I suppose I'm going with the appearance of white though Khathu: they are already on bgreunion: daviss-that is him vkn: ah ha daviss: Jordan and harriett up above Selma: She is listed as being Mu on the 1850 census..as is Thomas and the children Gertie: I did find a reference Thomas West, married to Suesan Barnell, child Enos listed in Ohio Deaths and Burial 1854-1897 alt: Gertie, my tkae is if she and Thomas were together as persons of color she would of 'lost' her identity as a white woman long ago regardless of how 'fair' her complexion may have been. bgreunion: vkn-emailed 1900 Art B. census 2 you vkn: okies bgreunion thanx daviss: so thats them then vkn and bgeunion lol vkn: grrrreat daviss Gertie: Alt, I'm sure you are correct, sorry. I don't really take it that way of the bat. What I mean is, I wouldn't care so it is hard for me to grasp people making such a fuss. daviss: ok thats good alt: I know that is what happened in my family, eventho' in later years some of them 'passed' as white. Gertie: Anyway, I found that reference but can't view the document, have to see can I track it down bgreunion: daviss-what sheet/pg is that? Gertie: maybe at the library daviss: Source Citation: Year: 1900; Census Place: Precinct 10, Jackson, Florida; Roll T623_171; Page: 4B; Enumeration District: 58. alt: I have several death certifiactes, as well as birth certificates where they race is stated as white... but the family is 'known' to be persons of color what State are you located in Gertie? daviss: will that work bgreunion Gertie: Texas alt: or have you already stated where you are located? Gertie: nope alt: oh, okay thanks Gertie Gertie: found that last record online daviss: Where in Texas Gertie Gertie: Dallas area vkn: ahhhh gertie daviss and khathu will love ya daviss: lol @ vkn Gertie: btw, happy to do some hoofing for the group if needed daviss: thx much Gertie alt: I'm in Ohio Gertie, so if I can be of help let me know. AYWalton: Gertie are you involved in the Dallas genealogy group? Gertie: Ok got Enos West, Male, death 10 Jun 1869 Indepence, Cuyahoga, Ohio AYWalton: I think they meet at the library, perhaps. 3rdthawkins: l Gertie: No, sorry, as I have very little family in Texas I haven't tried that AYWalton: Well many of them also research out of state as well. Gertie: My parents moved here from Ohio in the 70s, only relatives in Texas are my parents, two siblings, my kids, and now my grandchild and my brother had a kid Oh I didn't know that, thought they met to look at local stuff enos is listed as a black stone dealer alt: for Enos West, there would only be a death notice in the Cuyahoga County records .. it should/may have his race & parents listed in the line item. AYWalton: oh gracious no. I am a member of a group in Baltimore and my states are Ark/Okla/Miss/Tenn. don't research a thing in Maryland. I meet to get research ideas, and inspiration from other genealogists. Gertie: well then I really thank you for that bit of genius daviss: Is Lynda Mathews in the Gen Group vkn? vkn: AYW is agnes kane callum still active Gertie: What part of Okla, AY? vkn: sort of daviss alt: andyou can get help from Ohio Gertie.. check out www.ogs.org Selma: Still buzzing around in her scotter AY Gertie: I make occasionally forrays up around Norman, OK was why I asked bgreunion: thx AYWalton: she is slowing down a bit. alt: that is the State genealogy society and with your situation they might be of more help than an AA genealogy group. AYWalton: Arthritis and Parkinson's have her slowing down. But she is still sharp as a tack! vkn: thanx ayw Gertie: Well, I just found some good free information on Familysearch seems you can in fact view the records behind this stuff, so I think I will get to work and see what I can dig up on here 3rdthawkins: that's great Gertie alt: yes Gertie Familysearch has some very good Ohio records, especially DC's & Burial rcds. Gertie: no death record I can spy of Thomas though alt: no the viewable records are only for the years 1908-1953 Selma: Gertie..you will need to look at the whole 1850 census..and then the 1860 and 1870 alt: I should say viewable 'images' of death certificates Gertie: hm odd I was just viewing Enos' death record 3rdthawkins: Gertie go to this site http://beta.familysearch.org/#form=historical_records to view Ohio images, you will have to register though, but it is free Gertie: thanks that's where I am digging now 3rdthawkins: ok alt: when did Enos die Gertie? Gertie: took me a while to realize you click the thing to see the details of the record haha 10 July 1869 Ingrid_Doweary: :} alt: you're seeing a death record.. not the image of a death certificate from 1869. Gertie: maybe I will get the hang of this yet my bad, indeed you are correct, alt alt: and then that is the information from an Index for 1869. Selma: Enos is listed as Black Gertie: making another wild stab...wonder if Susannah could write? Every time I find her, name is spelled slightly different alt: That goes along with what Khathu is saying with his situation... Susan, Susannah, Susanna, etc. Gertie: just me curious, but I recall seeing something being fussed about when I was a kid about the state of LA calling people black on driver lic for many generations if there was the slightest black blood daviss: well good night folks! Gertie and bgreunion great to see you here. Please come back often Khathu: it is bs a Gertie: did other states used to do that? daviss: nite all Khathu: have a good evening everyone Gertie: Night all alt: of course Gertie.. ever hear of the 'one drop' rule? Gertie: sorry night those who are leaving now that you mention it, in context of La fuss I did hear that said My picture of all that is a little fuzzy I guess as I was never raised to consider the color of a person's skin It always surprised me to hear anyone else cared bgreunion: goodnight Selma: I spread a little bit further than LA Gertie... vkn: Niters dear people alt: laters vkn Ingrid_Doweary: niters alt: AYWalton, you still here? Gertie: I think possibly the fuss was LA was the last state to quit putting it on driver records AYWalton: yes, still here. 3rdthawkins: jhonora is in Louisiana alt: question AYWalton AYWalton: go ahead. 3rdthawkins: oops, gone now alt: do you have any %'s on Freedman who were the children of a NA woman and a black man? Spivey: Welcome back jhonora. AYWalton: very few. 3rdthawkins: wb jhonora jhonora: Thanks. Window froze. AYWalton: Most who were mixed NA were children of NA men and African slave women. Ingrid_Doweary: wb jhonora alt: I knew there had to be some as with.. white woman having children with black men (slaves) AYWalton: in the Territory--it was mostly with NA men. Ingrid_Doweary: Wouldn't the Bureau of Statistics have the information on US Freedman, AY? AYWalton: plus marriages between NA and Africans were forbidden even after the War. In the 1880s the Choctaws passed a bill making it a felony punished by lashes! alt: Waht was the status of the children from a black man/NA woman as compared to a NA man & black woman's child? the same? Ingrid_Doweary: If not how were local county populations reported? AYWalton: I think alt was talking about Freedmen from Indian Territory. Correct me if I am wrong, alt. alt: right AYWalton .. in Indian Territory Gertie: Are census' usually done early spring? Spivey: The months range between January and June from what I have seen Gertie. alt: need to check each census for starting and ending point Gertie AYWalton: the best answer to that is from the NARA website (national archives) which you can access at archives.gov, Gertie. alt: thanks for your answers AYWalton, I've been curious about the man/woman NA & black situation for sometime now. because most of the cases involved NA man & black woman that I've seen or heard about AYWalton: and several cases turned into landmark cases, alt. Joe & alt: I can believe it AYWalton AYWalton: Joe & Dillard Perry case, Dora & Jessie McGee case, Bettie Ligon case. all cases with NA fathers and putting the children on the rolls as not "by blood" Craziness. alt: Paul Henieg (sp) work is full of those cases with white woman and black men.. matter of fact he states that was the 'majority' situation in the pre 1800's. AYWalton: yes that is true, and quite different out west. 3rdthawkins: well I'm gonna go chat somewhere else, then Selma: Folks..its past my bedtime.. alt: huh, 3rdthawkins didn't leave angry did he? Gertie: hope no one left angry Spivey: Goodnight Selma. Selma: Good night. jhonora: Night Selma AYWalton: well we have seen folks storm out in a huff before and disappear for months. Gertie: I feel a tad indelicate I guess but all this is new and fascinating to me. AYWalton: I recall that took place last year. Gertie: Well, I hope no one rides off on their huff thanks to me. AYWalton: oh we have loads of fun and always try to help a newbie, Gertie. we hope that you join us often. Gertie: Thank you, looking forward to it AYWalton: plus you might find some who are researching the same area. jhonora: Absolutely, Gertie, you are welcome. AYWalton: that can always be a great thrill. alt: no problem Gertie , as I said earlier our questions may seem pointed, but they are asked in good faith and not to embarass or belittle anyone. Gertie: does anyone else wish you could sit these people down and say "Have a heart, try an unusual name, please?" hehehe AYWalton: Kind of helps with others join the hunt with you. lol Spivey: Gertie, I think that researching my family history and doing genealogy in general has tended to make me less vulnerable to 'sticky' issues. Most family histories have some. Ingrid_Doweary: Look forward to chatting with you again, Gertie? Gertie: Well, actually, I've heard and seemingly found all sorts of juicy stuff in my family histories. I think that is the bestest funnest part. right? Ingrid, I look forward to it AYWalton: oh that can be fun, Gertie, for sure! Gertie: We should some Thursday have a tell juicy tales chat Spivey: Gertie, all I do is think of the juicy tidbits in my own life and go hide when I think some future genealogist will be looking. ROTFL. AYWalton: well folks I am winding down. still resting up from my travels. have a great week everyone. Ingrid_Doweary: See ya. Spivey: You too, AYWalton. alt: oh yes Gertie.. family history is better than fiction LOL jhonora: See y'all latter!! Gertie: It is! Spivey: Much better alt. Ingrid_Doweary: Niters all. Gertie: and to think I went into this thinking oh it had all been simpler and whatnot alt: guess as they say in Gone With the wind ... quittin' time LOL Gertie: Quittin time is right:) night! alt: laters y'all |
vkn.
