AfriGeneas Sunday Brunch Chat Log - 27 Apr 2003

More On DNA

9 Sunday Brunch Chatters

11:13:41 :vkn :Good session last night

11:13:47 :Denise :yup - that was fun never thought I'd be discussin DNA just got finished teaching that part of course for my freshmen race - DNA - adaptation

11:14:40 :vkn :You contribute from such a broad knowledge base

11:16:11 :Denise :the stuff changes every few months as new discoveries are made to stay

11:16:22 :vkn :How is your VA trip findings working out

11:16:38 :Denise :Am transcribing wills and other docs - re-reading other stuff I copied tons of stuff - now have to make sense of it all

11:17:06 :vkn :Yes CSpan had a session last night on the female who "discovered" DNA and who has been forgotten

11:17:14 :Denise :ah!

11:17:23 :vkn :Most interesting

11:17:33 :Denise :didn't know a woman discovered

11:17:48 :vkn :Seems ahe kept most of her research findings secret

11:17:59 :Denise :oh?

11:18:16 :vkn :Well she was part of a team but did much of her work in isolation

11:18:35 :Denise :ahhhh

11:18:53 :vkn :A new book has just been released telling all

11:19:28 :Denise :I'll probably experiement with the DNA research stuff in a few months - don't have time for that now - am too busy I'm curious about results from diff companies talked to Irita - phone - for about an hour HEH HEH vkn!

11:23:05 :Art :really? I sent Irita a package and forgot to put any postage on it.....

11:23:09 :Denise :vkn - Irita's husband is a Canady - told her she should talk with Alta

11:23:30 :vkn :Indeed and with Roma Stewart

11:23:45 :Denise :but his Canady's 1910 are AL Talladega

11:24:22 :vkn :Ohhh that means they are Calhoun County as well

11:24:31 :Art :Is that right..Talladega....that's Embry turf huh, vkn

11:24:34 :Denise :I spent a half hour lookin at spellings - sheesh Canady Kennedy Canada Cannedy and her husbands family is also surnamed SMOOT

11:25:26 :vkn :Yes Kennedys are in Calhoun county since about 1854 came with Williams slaveholders I think right Art

11:25:46 :Art :There are a LOT of Smoot's here in Springfield & they're from Talladega.

11:25:48 :Denise :ahhh! good - AL is def not my area ;)

11:26:27 :vkn :Denise the 1866 census is on line at Afrigeneas as well as 1870 and 1880 I think

11:26:36 :Denise :k I'll tell her

11:27:17 :vkn :I have all index for Talladega as well and marriage books from 1866

11:27:35 :Art :many AL folks came to Springfiled...especially the Talladega & Calhoun county areas around 1920-1925...good jfactory obs

11:27:52 :Denise :she's been so focused on her family line - is just startin on hubby's

11:28:48 :Denise :Hello JerryLivey

11:28:52 :JerryLIvey :I just figured out the Java problem

11:29:34 :JerryLIvey :I'm running Windows XP with IE6. One system didn't work, but a second one did. I think I have the Sun Java on this one.

11:29:36 :Art :I sent her (Irita) a double cousin thingee Adams & Williams from Zanesville, OH..that's what I didn't put postage on

11:29:43 :Denise :Art - you make me think everyone moved to Ohio :)

11:30:09 :vkn :Jerry are you the the author of the DNA article posted yesterday?

11:30:10 :Art :I thought you knew that Denise:)

11:30:15 :Denise :hee hee

11:30:26 :JerryLIvey :Yes.

11:30:41 :Denise :cool - we had great DNA discussion last night here Jerry sorry you weren't here

11:31:18 :JerryLIvey :Sorry I couldn't be there. I went to see two high school plays with my wife.

11:31:52 :Art :Sent me to "google" this AM AA DNA testing.....lot of "stuff" out there

11:32:34 :vkn :Your argument pro or con re role and value of DNA Jerry

11:33:07 :JerryLIvey :I am not a DNA expert, but have recently started with a Surname Project for the Ivey-Ivie-Ivy family. I chose FamilyTreeDNA because of their reputation. I had not heard of African Ancestors at the time.

11:34:05 :Denise :do you have Ivy family who are artists? know some NY Ivy's

11:34:43 :JerryLIvey :My point was that much information has been shared on various DNA surname projects and groups such as about the value of 25 vs 12 marker testing. It's the 25 marker testing that allows you to match families. The 12 marker is a good start for "rough" or "approximate" matches, and is less expensive to start.

11:35:43 :Denise :I think you made a good point about the number of markers Jerry

11:36:12 :Art :Jerry, is the value in "group research" or .....

11:36:17 :JerryLIvey :The African Ancestors is valuable information for history and tribal association in Africa, but it is only 8-marker.

11:37:01 :Denise :well AA's should be careful about only doing Africa roots tracing anyway does not show the whole picture

11:37:17 :JerryLIvey :My Ivey family is from the mixed-race group in Bladen/Robeson Co, NC, in the mid to late 1700's. They went from there to MS/LA/TX.

11:38:28 :Art :So does Mitachondrial vs Y-chromosome testing give confusing results?

11:38:58 :JerryLIvey :For the group's information, my family has been "white" since about 1800. I only found out from DNA testing that I have a paternal African line. The Y testing is for paternal lines; the mtDNA is for maternal.

11:39:53 :Art :right Jerry

11:40:28 :Denise :that's great Jerry

11:40:32 :Art :and don't they deal with "unboken lines" to a specific individual?

11:41:31 :Denise :Jerry - have you done the genealogy to back up the results yet?

11:42:41 :JerryLIvey :You can check out My line is J2 in the chart, which is believed to descend from T3.

11:42:50 :Denise :I know NC has/had a lot of early admixtures hmm - URL won't bring the page up

11:44:10 :JerryLIvey :Bladen/Robeson Co, NC, is "famous" or "infamous" for this. The website is up now, since I'm looking at the page. We're still fairly new, so there could be browser issues.

11:46:02 :Art :I hear of Euro & AA these Databases have Native American in any sufficient quantity? NA Markers

11:46:50 :CAK :I will have to check from a different browser I am getting the message page not found

11:46:59 :JerryLIvey :FamilyTreeDNA has several tests which are NA oriented. I haven't done them myself, except for the DNAPrint test.

11:47:09 :Art :I see

11:47:10 :Denise :found this

11:48:05 :JerryLIvey :That's the main URL. There should be a link named "Family Groups Represented". There's a lot of controversy about the DNAPrint test. I don't necessarily recommend it at the time.

11:49:35 :Denise :Adam Ivey appears on the 1770 Bladen tax list as a mulatto and on the 1772 tax list as a white interestring - wonder if there was a legal determination to become white?

11:51:37 :JerryLIvey :There are several Adams in the line. A2 is thought to be the most likely branch for the father of T3.

11:52:18 :Denise :what does Heinegg have on Ivies?

11:53:08 :ET :If memory serves me correctly, Denise, 15 generations (300 years) was decided to be the determination of "pure" Euro, Afro, etc.

11:53:33 :Denise :varied from state to state ET - and depends on time period

11:53:35 :JerryLIvey :Read the description by Bob Baird for the U2.2 Thomas Ivey for a court appearance. Heinegg has an entire section on Ivey/Ivy. He and Bob Baird are probably the two best current researchers relevant to the Ivey/Ivy.

11:54:00 :Denise :figgered - just don't have Vol II here in the room

11:55:42 :ET :My understanding of that Denise, was that it was 'set up' in Europe...whatever corruptions were made by the folks who colonized these shores serves a different purpose.

11:56:28 :Denise :hmmm - ET still think it depended on what part of Europe Spain had very diff criteria from that of England and France differed too

11:57:13 :JerryLIvey :The legal determination in the US varied from period to period, depending upon public attitudes. Attitudes hardened from the Colonial Period to after the Civil War.

11:57:32 :Denise :property issue primarily based on children takiing particular status which prevented emancipation or change from indentured status racism is just the ideology to give clout to economic foundation

11:58:55 :JerryLIvey :I just finished "Mulatto America" by Stephan Talty. It documents some of the changes over the years.

12:00:42 :Denise :I have a list somewhere around here of all of the court cases on file to deal with "racial" determinations confusing to say the least

12:01:59 :JerryLIvey :An approximate "watershed" appears to be about 1800, when attitudes began to harden. The Reconstruction years after the Civil Wars also became increasingly bitter.

Denise :yes - Reconstruction was in some ways more difficult than slave period

12:02:53 :Art :Ever notice the lineage for antebellum south says for whites "son of James Smith" for blacks where recorded it is usually John son of Sally

12:03:25 :JerryLIvey :That's because the father was usually sold off to another owner to split up the family.

12:04:11 :Denise :interestingly it reflects an African matrilineal focus as well

12:04:19 :Art :slavery....status of mother ...even James Smith's children by a slave were slaves...Yep Denise

12:04:31 :Denise :many african nations do not recognize paternal descent

12:06:12 :Art :Someone recently post a list of Slave births on the Slavery Forum, all mention mothers...none referenced an AA slave father

12:06:26 :ET :The old saying "Moma's baby, daddy's maybe" goes a lot deeper than may be apparent on the surface.

12:06:42 :Denise :yup - though I have a few records from Loudoun where father is mentioned

12:06:45 :JerryLIvey :One of the legal changes noted in the book I mentioned was that in the Colonial period it was possible for a white father to acknowledge and free his children by a slave mother. Later this became not legally allowed.

12:07:00 :Denise :yes Jerry - true a lot of roadblocks were thrown up to prevent a wave of emancipations

12:07:40 :Art :exactly....and that's when the 'get outa town laws" where established for newly freed blacks

12:08:11 :Denise :well - US slave holders were constrained by the British Embargo - Blockade - against slave ships no new supply - so had to swich to "grow your own"

12:08:56 :Art :And that's when we became "home grown"

12:09:01 :Denise :yuppers Brazil never bothered to home grow had an endless supply - cheap wear out and replace economy

12:09:58 :JerryLIvey :Another point of view there was the relative cost of importing a slave to the US as opposed to Brazil. It was sufficiently more expensive to the US.

12:10:00 :Art'em to death....there is a new boat acoming

12:10:06 :Denise :yup less women imported also - Brazil - no need to home grow

12:11:04 :JerryLIvey :There is one "funny" story I read about a US slave owner not wanting to risk the death/injury to one of his slaves, so he hired an Irishman to do the dangerous work.

12:11:10 :Denise :well the Portuguese had control over several major ports and had ships to supply cheaply LOL - Jerry I've read same story - used it in class for my students 3 weeks ago they were shocked ;) Art - the Brazilians differed also in another way - they also sent slaves BACK to Africa they had problems with Hausas - who could read and write Arabic - foment rebellions shipped em back vowed to nver import any more Muslims

12:14:27 :Art :How 'bout the ploy of impregnating indentured white females by male African slaves...Her term was extended and the children were slaves until 31 years of age.

12:14:28 :Denise :not like the Liberia experiment which was a way to get rid of freed slaves yup Art - another sneaky trick resulted in a lot of Irish surnamed AA's

12:15:50 :JerryLIvey :There was a fairly large incidence of indentured white females who married FPOC.

12:15:55 :Art :exactly Denise

12:16:13 :Denise :yup Jerry have seen them in records Jerry - hope you don't mind me asking - but when did you learn of African line in the family - and how have other Ivey's responded?

12:18:19 :JerryLIvey :I suspect that was the case of my Thomas and Elizabeth Ivey. Since he considered himself "Portugeuse", I suspect he is the one who brought the AA genes into my line.

12:19:14 :Art :When you look into it..Do you think the Colonization movement "Liberia" was somewhat racist? can't have too many free blacks running loose :)

12:19:16 :JerryLIvey :All serious Ivey/Ivy researchers have always known of the probability that any Ivey/Ivy from the Bladen/Robeson Co, NC area in the mid to late 1700s was mixed-race.

12:19:35 :Denise :k Jerry Art - after reading letters home from Liberia I'm appalled - so many died

12:20:40 :JerryLIvey :The DNA testing will be a wake-up call to many. Most have wanted to claim Indian ancestry to explain some pigmentation :)

12:20:52 :Denise :other's became oppressors" in Liberia Jerry - that's what I think too :) It might just break thru 100 years of "Denial

12:21:31 :Art :Yep, reparations will change some of that Jerry :) pigmentation, that is....that Indian or italian gg-gradma suddenly becomes bllack

12:22:50 :Denise :2 of my "white" students started crying hysterically in class when I showed them picture of my gr-great grand dad - who was a slave they kept saying "but he's white" LOL

12:23:25 :JerryLIvey :I personally do not believe that reparations is a good idea. I know I don't have the "right" to say much in this area since I don't have the Black Heritage you guys do, but I believe it is too provacative.

12:24:03 :Denise :Reparations is a very complicated issue

12:24:21 :JerryLIvey :Denise, there's also a description of "white slaves" in the book I mentioned.

12:25:06 :Denise :Yes - I have the book - and several others which deal with that issue

12:25:22 :Art :True Jerry & Denise....especially when it revolves around money and not what is really being asked for....a fair chance to correct past wrongs

12:26:05 :Denise :The Nisei (Japnese Americans) have dealt with the repartaions issue - of course it is smaller scale

12:26:26 :JerryLIvey :I don't know where I would really end up in the matter. Some of my mixed-raced ancestors were also slave owners.

12:26:31 :Denise :the one's imprisoned during WWII

12:26:51 :Art :When you read about the government "reparating" slave owners for their losses during the CW it makes me angry

12:27:01 :Denise :I have slave-holding ancestors Jerry and enslaved ones as well

12:27:24 :Art :many of us do Denise

12:27:34 :Denise :yup Art - most of us do ;) I am not a supporter of reparatios per se - but am STRONG supporter of a variety of Affirmative action programs - it will take several hundred years to re-dress damages

12:28:52 :JerryLIvey :One thing I have been wondering about on the matter of DNA Surname Projects is how to identify original family lines. One group which has begun this is the Melungeons who have a group project.

12:28:56 :Denise :done to social infra-structure yikes - Melungeons - are such a mixed bag

12:29:44 :Art :One area in my history that surprised me was the slave holding French Huguenots who came here around 1700...with slaves

12:30:05 :Denise :heh heh - some of my ancestors Art :)

12:30:06 :JerryLIvey :Since my paternal ancestor was African, I would expect to match people of other surnames perhaps more frequently than for Ivey.

12:30:45 :Denise :hmmm - good point Jerry

12:30:57 :JerryLIvey :The African Ancestry project is a way of attempting this, but I thought it too limited and too expensive.

12:31:29 :Denise :It is going to take time - I forsee a day when every person by law will have to have DNA on file

12:31:40 :Denise :encoded to credit cards etc

12:31:42 :Art :There were Ivy's in Ross county, OH who came here from NC ca 1820-1840

12:31:52 :Denise :mulattos Art?

12:32:07 :JerryLIvey :That's why I appreciate the attempt to allow public searches.

12:32:27 :Art :Yep, along with Waldens, Scotts and other's in Heniegg book

12:33:08 :JerryLIvey :The 1820-1840 period was one of tremendous movement out of the Carolinas. It was a bad time economically, and also the new land had been opened up to the west.

12:33:35 :CAK :Waldens?

12:34:15 :Art :Walden, Waldon, waldron and other varitions...I'm Walden

12:34:38 :CAK :We have some Waldens in GA

12:34:42 :Denise :There are some Ivey's listed in Biographical index as well

12:35:23 :JerryLIvey :The documented Ivey lines are extremely inaccurate. Read the Bob Baird research for an attempted clarification.

12:35:44 :Art :got it marked Jerry :)

12:36:38 :JerryLIvey : That's why we believe the DNA surname project could be really valuable for the family, if we can only get more people to sign up.

12:39:07 :CAK :Jerry, I am not sure all of the privacy issues have been fully addressed

12:39:46 :Denise :I'm going to sign up for several of the genetic projects - but next year - I ave too much data right now to deal with

12:39:55 :Art :How do you go about getting a DNA sample from a "suspected" ancestor to cross match against....ergo jefferson/hemmings

12:40:08 :JerryLIvey :That's a personal decision between a participant and the group administrator. It's a relatively new area, so I think we will learn much more in the future.

12:40:25 :Denise :you can gene match with lineal "proven' descendants

12:40:44 :JerryLIvey :You have to use persuasion, bribery, flattery, threats, etc, or whatever :)

12:42:06 :Denise :I'd like to get gene samples from some of the VA Carters's - who owned my gr-grandfather

12:42:17 :Art :What confuses me is the breaks in an ancestral line. not all have a direct male or female line.?????

12:42:17 :Denise :he looked just like his owner

12:42:31 :JerryLIvey :Honestly, I suspect most of the current single-name projects have a subtle bias not toward AA history. It's difficult to track surnames for AA families.

12:43:16 :Denise :good point

12:43:53 :JerryLIvey :We have had one success already, which was almost "spooky" in how quickly it happened. One participant knew that it was his ggm who was the Ivey and his gf took her name. So he's not really an Ivey according to Y DNA.

12:44:28 :Denise :what happened?

12:44:39 :Art :do you have to have an unbroken male line for the Y test. male to male to male male, ctc?

12:44:48 :JerryLIvey :But he got a match against a participant with another surname through YBASE and is now communicating with his possible "cousin".

12:44:56 :Denise :ahhh!

12:45:31 :CAK :Jerry, at first I thought you meant his girl friend lol

12:45:34 :JerryLIvey :The Y test only works for the unbroken male line. I've seen a picture of his wife. I don't think he needs a girl friend. :)

12:46:18 :Art :You er example jerry..the ggm broke that line ...hence the surprising result

12:46:55 :JerryLIvey :Because of the limited size of the databases so far, it was like winning the lottey for him. Very low odds.

12:47:32 :Denise :since my brother is deceased - as is my father - I would not be able to use Y based ?

12:47:51 :JerryLIvey :But's that precisely my point of the extreme concentration of some Project Administrators on surnames. It only works if the surname follows the genes. No, your DNA results would be compared against other participants. Assuming no non-paternal events, your results would be the same as your brother and father. Oops, sorry Denise, I missed who I was addressing. You need a male participant. Your testing would not work for the Y test.

12:49:40 :Art :but she doesn't have a Y chromsome to match against, right?

12:49:59 :Denise :that's what I figgered I need sample from my dad's half-brother's son half brother was son of my granddad

12:50:40 :JerryLIvey :You would need to find a male relative from the direct line, so only if your dad and his half-brother had the same father.

12:50:51 :Denise :they did *sigh* can't find his son lol

12:51:18 :Art :or yikes, Denise :)

12:51:25 :JerryLIvey :You can look up and see if there is an existing project for your family surname.

12:51:33 :Denise :I'll stick to mitocondrial tests ;) hmmm- sure there is prolly one for Oliver

12:52:27 :Art :And does the female line have to be unbroken for the MTC test?

12:52:33 :JerryLIvey :If you can find someone who is related through the male line, you can benefit from their results.

12:53:01 :lyndam :Can't bring those other Mathieu's out of hiding! :)

12:53:30 :Art :I hear you lyndam

12:53:45 :JerryLIvey :Yes, the mtDNA is only for the female line. The DNAPrint test from AncestryByDNA attempts to measure a relative admixture of African, NA, IndoEuropean, and East Asian, but it really doesn't help much for genealogy.

12:55:53 :Art :You're laying some GOOD stuff on us Jerry....thanks

12:56:31 :Denise :hmmm- I'll look for surname Roberts - have some unbroken Roberts males

12:56:50 :JerryLIvey :Two of the best places to start are and

12:59:41 :Denise :am reading the list of projects

12:59:51 :Denise :found one family name - Payne

13:00:46 :Art :Jerry, i have an unbroken male line from Samuel Adams to my gfather...theoretically I could test from Sam to him and the pick up my Gen documentation to make my connection to Sam...right? You have to be a bit careful to interpret the results. You can't prove that a certain person was a direct ancestor, only that you share a common ancestor.

13:02:14 :Art :right..that's the jefferson problem

13:02:39 :JerryLIvey :Take the Jefferson-Hemmings case for example. They can't prove that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemmings children, but only that he or a male relative is probable. But that's the potential value of the DNA testing in augmenting traditional "paper" genealogy. It helps to focus where to look.

13:04:10 :lyndam :But then, wouldn't you (theoretically) have to prove YOUR genetic connection ? or trust your GEN research

13:05:31 :JerryLIvey :In my case, there are at least 4 possible main branches of the Ivey family tree. I suspect only one will show the AA paternal genes in the 1600s-early 1700s. That will help me concentrate the research efforts, but it won't prove any thing by itselt.

13:05:59 :lyndam :see

13:06:09 :Denise :k

13:06:18 :Art :because of broken lines Mayflower descendants would/could have a heck of a time proving their lineage thru DNA, huh?

13:06:53 :JerryLIvey :I'm sure there will be some lineages broken by DNA testing. :)

13:07:31 :Denise :hmmm- so what would be the best testing service for a female to participate in?

13:08:31 :JerryLIvey :Some of the Ivey family records to which I earlier referred are in complete contradiction to DNA results. You should never underestimate the emotional involvement in the "recording" of family research.

13:09:28 :Denise :I see surname PAYNE project a VA family - my great grandmother was a PAYNE - but since she is female - none of this will help me - correct?

13:09:55 :JerryLIvey :Denise, it depends upon what you need to research. The DNA testing is a narrow tool. It can only be used for specific types of testing. The mtDNA has been used mostly in the study of global migration in the last 15,000 years.

13:10:03 :Denise :k gotcha I'm actually more interested in % of admixtures in my mixed up family

13:10:49 :JerryLIvey :If your great-grandmother was a Payne and you can document it, then you need to find one of her Payne male relative

13:11:31 :Denise :I actually want to dis-prove a family myth

13:11:43 :JerryLIvey :The DNAPrint test attempts to do that. Although there's some controversy about it now, they are working on a newer version which is supposed to improve results for genealogical research usage.

13:12:05 :Art :Do you thinkbecause of the "racial undertones" DNA testing will be widely accepted by the general genealogist?

13:12:43 :JerryLIvey :Native American "Princesses" are one thing which could be disproved to some degree of probability by the DNAPrint test.

13:13:13 :Art :Oh, Oh no more Pocohontas LOL

13:13:36 :CAK :lol

13:14:02 :JerryLIvey :The main thing that the DNA testing reveals is that we are all one big bunch of jumbled-up genes which come from the same ancestors. Hopefully, it could contribute to an improvement in "race" relations.

13:14:26 :Art :Amen Jerry

13:15:02 :JerryLIvey :Actually, I hate the word "race". We really need to find another word, since there's really only one race of which we are all part (I haven't met any Martians lately).

13:15:22 :CAK :Jerry you haven't lol

13:15:53 :JerryLIvey :I don't know. Have you? I hope I didn't insult your own background :)

13:16:24 :CAK :I haven't but when I hear people talking about past lives I am not sure they weren't from a different planet

13:16:25 :Art :That's an educational process all by itself Jerry....race vs ethnic vs culttral vs ???, huh Denise

13:16:50 :Denise :yup I have a hard time getting students to "unlearn' myth of race *sigh* they are even more confused by genetics - vs culture

13:19:27 :Art :That's like this War stuff....80-90% Arabs are Muslim, but only about 25% of Muslims are Arab....not the conventional view

13:19:29 :Denise :is the most difficult for American's - my foreighn students are less embedded in the ideology true Art - we tend to use Arab and Muslim as interchangeable terms

13:20:10 :JerryLIvey :For some reasons, my messages are not echoing.

13:20:10 :Denise :on is ethnicity - the other is religion Jerry - it will take at least 100 years or more for folks to change attitudes I did an analysis of college textbooks for a project sponsored by the American anthropological Association most are still teaching outdated concepts of "race"

13:22:12 :JerryLIvey :I can't use the word H-o-m-o Sapiens without being filtered.

13:22:19 :Denise :lol- yup you have to type Homo*

13:22:35 :lyndam :lol filtering...

13:22:52 :JerryLIvey :I was trying to say that there's only one race --- H-o-m-o Sapiens Sapiens. All the others died out.

13:23:16 :Denise :yes - but most scientists even won't listen to that

13:23:41 :JerryLIvey :This has been one of the tremendous successes of mtDNA testing in documenting such things as Neanderthal man and others.

13:23:48 :Denise :people have a NEED to be different from, better than - someone Neandertal theory is now being re-examined old theory - they died out

13:24:30 :Art :I wonder how many folks have been mis-diagnosed because they had a malady that didn't fit their "racial" appearence?

13:24:32 :Denise :new theory - they inter-mixed

13:25:04 :CAK :Art that is an interesting question

13:25:14 :Denise :yes Art - it happens all the time

13:25:18 :CAK :I think probably more than we can guess

13:25:28 :Denise :it has with sickle cell and has happened with Tay-sachs doctors only look for Tay Sachs amnong Orthodox Jewish (eastern-european) pops

13:26:38 :JerryLIvey :"Mapping Human History", by Steve Olson. "The Seven Daughters of Eve", by Brian Sykes. There's a third recent book but I can't lay my hands on it at the moment. All about mtDNA studies of human ancestry.

13:27:41 :Art :If anyone remembers Cong. Bob Barr from GA. I swear he looks like an AA, especially when you see his hairline from a back or side view:)

13:27:48 :Denise :folks - my stomach is growling - gotta get food - Jerry it's been great talking with you Cuz art and CAK, Lyndam and vkn - take it easy

13:28:22 :JerryLIvey :Do a Google Search on African Bob Barr. It's almost an entire industry discussing this topic.

13:28:25 :Denise :seeya's tomorrow prolly if i get home early enuf

13:28:58 :Art :You see it Bob Barr, huh Jerry?

13:29:45 :CAK :I too must say bye

13:30:06 :JerryLIvey :Personally, I do. But it's a very subjective matter. I don't look AA at all, but my genes say so. So how do you make a definition?

13:30:14 :Art :guess I'll get outa here too...thanks all and nice meeting you Jerry

13:30:21 :lyndam :If in LA, one drop :)

13:30:43 :JerryLIvey :How about "One gene"?

13:30:48 :lyndam :lol Jerry, this has been SUCH an eye-opening experience Hopefully, others will learn about the possibilities Can you 'chat' with us again sometime?

13:31:59 :JerryLIvey :Let anyone know I am available to answer any questions I can. I'm not an expert, but I can give the benefit of my own experiences.

13:33:34 :JerryLIvey :Now that I know of the website, I'll try to stay plugged in more and participate as much as possible.

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AfriGeneas ~ African Ancestored Genealogy