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Start: 21:08:46
End: 23:11:55
Chatters: 3rdthawkins, alt, AmosNY, AYWalton, Ingrid_Doweary, jhonora, keli1, Selma, vkn

3rdthawkins: hello Selma

Selma: Evening 3rd Folks must be having a busy night this evening

3rdthawkins: yeah, I know, but I'm sure it will pick up, maybe in the back of their minds they are thinking 30 mins. afterward

Selma: So how goes the research?

3rdthawkins: going pretty good, making some progress

Selma: Evening Amos

3rdthawkins: excited about new connections hello Amos

AmosNY: Hello Hawkins,Selma!

Selma: How are things in the Big City Amos...

AYWalton: Good evening all.

3rdthawkins: hey AY

AYWalton: Hello.

Selma: Evening AY

AYWalton: why there's AmosNY! Greetings, Ms. Selma!

AmosNY: Things are great Selma. Hi Angela!

AYWalton: small group this evening, I see. How are things in NY, Amos?

AmosNY: My local train service is out this weekend, so I can't go to my own church.

AYWalton: that's not good, Amos. Where in NY do you live? and where is your church?

Selma: Something wrong with the tracks?

AmosNY: They are modernizing the switches on the Long Island RailRoad.

Selma: Oh the LRR

AmosNY: My church is in Brooklyn. There is no service to Brooklyn.

AYWalton: That is disappointing.

AmosNY: Its the lirr.

AYWalton: How long does it take you to get there?

AmosNY: About 90 minutes.

AYWalton: oh well, looks like you will have a quiet Sunday at home.

3rdthawkins: lol

keli1: good evening folks

Selma: Evening keli

AmosNY: I might be visiting a friend's church. She is a pastor.

AYWalton: greetings, keli1~ you must have seen my tweet!

3rdthawkins: cool AmosNY

AYWalton: Greetings, jhonora!!! how are you this evening.

Selma: Evening Jhonora

jhonora: Evening all!

AmosNY: Hi jhonora.

jhonora: Doing fine and yourself?

keli1: yes I did see your tweet, the power, been grading papers and needed a mental chat helps, hearing Dr. King on Cspan3-Julian Bond's presentation on Montgomery boycott

AYWalton: fairly well, jhonora, thanks.

jhonora: AY, do you know a James Bumpass from Ft. Smith?

AYWalton: no, but I have seen that name. who is that, Jhonora?

vkn: JHonora missed ya

AYWalton: tell me about James Bumpass, jhonora? (I must be tired, I keep switching up my punctuation--putting periods where questions marks should be and vice versa!) lol

jhonora: Jas. Bumpass Sr comes up in my research in Nashville, I think the son might have moved to AK. The senior was nat'l lawyer for Knights of Peter Claver.

keli1: lol, focus Angela, focus

vkn: Welcome to the mismatch AYW lol

jhonora: Hi vkn, I will send email to you all about project.

AYWalton: jhonora, I did not realize that we had a K of P chapter in Ft. Smith.

vkn: okies jhonora thanx

alt: hello 3rd, AmosNy,

AYWalton: My dad joined the K of C, and the Holy Name Society, but we never had a K of P when I was growing up. Must be something new.

AmosNY: Is that Knights of Pythias?

keli1: Selma, we got two more new members for AAHGS CVA..word must be spreading

Selma: Thats great keli

AYWalton: you all are really growing, keli1! That's fantastic!

jhonora: AY, You all don't have one, just Little Rock & Pine Bluffs. Bumpass was from TN but seems to have moved to Ft. Smith.

alt: yes kelia, best wishes with your 'new' chapter

AYWalton: hmm.......I have seen the name someplace, though--Bumpass, I mean.

keli1: I think we are up to 14 now, lol...all different families

Selma: Evening alt... I missed you coming in..

AYWalton: I didn't think we did. We only had KofC.

alt: i snuck in Slema

Ingrid_Doweary: Hey 3rd, Alt, Amos, AY, Jhonora, Keli1, Selma and Vkn.

AYWalton: Howdy alt!!!! Hope you are doing well. and Ingrid_Doweary slipped in, too.

alt: 'lo AYWalton, doing well thanks & you?

AYWalton: pretty good. jhonora, have you ever heard of Knightood of St. Gregory?

keli1: familysearch folks told us at the AAHGS conference that all their sites would be merged last monday I am not seeing it! uggghhh

AYWalton: I was wondering about that mergers as well, keli1.

keli1: Julian Bond still looks good folks, he is on CSpan3..

jhonora: Yes, AY, I have.

alt: merge.. is that their .org site and the two (2) other sites Pilot & beta, all into one?

AYWalton: we had a major benefactor of our small parish years ago, who was a Knight of St. Gregory. Sir Charles Jewett.

alt: or just the Pilot & beta site merging?

keli1: yes and the wiki site, all together but I am not seeing it

AYWalton: Julian was looking sickly a few years ago, but now looks fairly good these days.

3rdthawkins: it will happen keli1, they have already started that process, little by little it seems every time I visit pilot there's a message at top giving me a link and telling me to go to the beta site

keli1: I know it will, he said it was done, so did the ancestry folks,

jhonora: I remember seeing his picture AY. it is a high pontifical honor. Several dozen blacks with the honor.

keli1: he referenced (Jim Isom) that the Beta site had the most info vs. the others

alt: oh no, I hope you aren't saying that ancestry is 'hooked' into the familysearch sites... please don't say that :(

keli1: bond @AY, looks like he gained some weight, maybe health improvement came with it,

3rdthawkins: I know alt........I think she may be talking about Ancestry and Footnote hope so

keli1: they are all linked out of Utah to my knowledge family search and ancestry are LDS, etc

alt: they are all in Utah, but they aren't 'linked', at least publicly

3rdthawkins: they are together Keli1 well, as alt said, at least not publicly oops, meant they Are NOT together

alt: Family search is LDS linked 'officially', but I'm not sure if Ancestry is linked to LDS....

jhonora: Isn't Ancestry an outgrowth of Gen. Soc. of Utah?

AYWalton: Ancestry, is a company and not a church related organization. Of course being in Utah, many (most?) of the employees are LDS.

alt: Ancestry is part of the The Generations Network and that is not LDS/Mormon linked.

AYWalton: It is a publicly traded market on the stock exchange.

AmosNY: I think Ancestry has some sort of arrangement without being part of LDS.

keli1: ancestry's mission is same as Moron Church mission

jhonora: Which one does Smolenyak work for?

AmosNY: Keli, I'm sure you probably meant Mormon not Moron.

alt: not sure she really works for either jhonora

keli1:,, rootsweb, all linked, oops mormon

alt: now that linkage you mentioned is true, to my knowledge keli1

3rdthawkins: true keli1 all apart of the Generations Network

AmosNY: Thanks. We don't need any unwelcome criticism from Mormon believers.

keli1: I am reading from copyright stuff, I have no problem with anyones beliefs, it is theirs...I am not criticizing at all

alt: Jim Isom worked in Cincinnati at the UGRR LDS FHC before he went to work with familysearch

keli1: he was great, I attended two of his sessions

alt: A really nice fellow, and quite knowledgable on AA genealogy & History.

keli1: he provided a summary of 4 books, Tony B's was one of them..

AmosNY: Keli, I understand.

alt: oh, on a personal note... my Tribal Pages website just had it's 1,000 individual vistor... not hit, but one-time visitor. been up since Dec of last year.

keli1: There was a young girl who presented on her family member who was counted twice in the 1880 census, that was good as well

AYWalton: way to go, alt!! I am so impressed with your site!

keli1: woohoo Art, that is wonderful...

Ingrid_Doweary: Kudos, Alt!

jhonora: Great alt, congrats!

alt: thank all :} notice tha grin ear to ear LOL

Selma: You should be grinning..but it is well deserved and a great site

keli1: lol, keep grinning it is a wonderful product of your work

alt: thanks .. to a lot of folks for their help

Ingrid_Doweary: Hear, hear, Keli1

alt: any 'opinion's on the VA school book for 4th graders?

keli1: That was interesting, George posted that info...

3rdthawkins: hey alt, speaking of You, here is a link someone shared concerning their ancestors (a white research) thought about you, had to get the link and share it regard ancestors in Canada

AYWalton: that story is amazing, but glad it is being pulled from several places.

alt: ah yes 3rdthawkins, thanks.. my AA Canadian ancestors were 'gradually' manumitted under the Simcoe Act in Canada, which offically abolished Slavery there in 1792.

Selma: I have been waiting to see if they would interview the author

3rdthawkins: person's paternal ancestors came over with slaves to the U.S but had to free them (I am thinking about of the illegality of the slave importation), but his/her maternal ancestor helped freed slaves going to Canada

keli1: I am amazed at J. Bonds look, he is playing the I have a dream speech, he has a look on his face that is priceless.

alt: she's i hiding Selma and by now probably in a 'witness protection' program LOL

Selma: LOL

Ingrid_Doweary: Which program channel are you looking at, Keli1?

keli1: it is now going off, Julian B, on teh Montgomery boycott

Ingrid_Doweary: Good nite. Amos

keli1: cspan 3 Wm Freehling Pre-Civil War Virginia showdowns coming on now Selma do you get cspan3?

alt: some of JUlian Bonds's ancestors that migrated North settled here in the Miami Valley in the 1840's.

Selma: Yes...

Ingrid_Doweary: Okay. I missed it.

keli1: it is starting now

Selma: I heard part of this earlier keli

keli1: I am sure they rerun them, on the weekends is American History TV

Ingrid_Doweary: Okay I completely missed all of that.

Selma: Where did they migrate from alt?

alt: here is an 'ironic' situation.. Abraham Lincoln who 'officially' kept the Union together was assassinated... and Jefferson Davis who helped in 'splitting the Union was protected and lived to a ripe old age. I believe Alabama, to PA then to Ohio Selma

Selma: Folks gotta run...have a good evening.

Ingrid_Doweary: The irony of that is astounding, Alt. Where did you encounter the information, Alt.

keli1: interesting Art

alt: just a thought Ingrid_Doweary the heat of the 'rebel' cause was able to plot an assassination and the 'temper' of the time allowed Jefferson Davis full protection.

3rdthawkins: because the Union wasn't looking to kill anyone

jhonora: alt, I live a few blocks from where Davis died.

3rdthawkins: we know it's always the "bad guys" looking to do harm

Ingrid_Doweary: Was that the actions of Andrew Johnson forgive the 'rebel cause' in order to reconcile the union.

3rdthawkins: in the end, he lived long but didn't win. It took losing life to get freedom

alt: and how the heat of the 'Confederate cause' is till simmering and we 'civilized' folks look the other way... the only way a book like the 4th grade book could be published and put into the school system is that right jhonora, WoW!!

Ingrid_Doweary: Are you referring to the black participation of civil war on the confederate side?

alt: no Ingrid_Doweary, just how 'evil' is always working and the 'good folks' have a tendency to let their guard down...

Ingrid_Doweary: Oh I get it, Alt.

jhonora: alt, we also have Robert E. Lee Circle, Davis' First Tomb, Beauregard Circle, Confederate Memorial Hall, Jefferson Davis Parkway with its parade of Confederate monuments. Take your pick of which one to desecrate first lol.

3rdthawkins: dang! I know one of my bros. went to Jefferson Davis College

alt: I hear ya jhonora

3rdthawkins: and yet black folk feel safe to live down there? I guess they are living Spike Lee's documentary about if the South had actually won

keli1: Jefferson Davis elementary school in Biloxi, MS

alt: forget the title, but there is a great book about how the North won the Battle's but South won the Civil War with all of the legals concessions to segregation, Jim Crow, etc.

keli1: the south won the civil war?

jhonora: From all I hear, Georgia, still hasn't received the word that the War is over.

keli1: what is the name of it I think Virginia hasn't realized it either

3rdthawkins: not sure about won alt, but they sure did find a way around the illegality of slavery in America

keli1: Florida don't know it

alt: in the sense that the only thing they lost was the legal right of chattel Slavery, but the Feds conceded so many other aspects of Federal law to the South keli1

jhonora: The GOP sold us out in 1876 Election. Then they allowed Hoover to almost fully sever ties.

alt: another irony jhonora, the 'party' that freed us turned around and sold us out.. and are still selling us out :( off my soapbox LOL

3rdthawkins: they didn't care about "US" in the first place

keli1: I am not really sure we were freed

alt: for sure 3rdthawkins and how true keli1

jhonora: If anybody's interested, I hear a guy named Garvey has ships headed for Africa lol

alt: bad as it is, think I'll stay here jhonora

3rdthawkins: my grandparents and I gonna pass for white lol rofl

alt: and I'll do as some of mine did... make it as a FPOC with all of the restrictions of Black Codes and all.

keli1: I think I will stay here too lol

3rdthawkins: I am still trying to fathom marrying your cousin because he wants to be white and you are one of the only ones that can help him accomplish that

jhonora: My cabin seems pretty nice. Y'all go 'head, I'm gone sharecrop.

Ingrid_Doweary: Yes, Jhonora Marcus Josiah Garvey established the Black Starline Cruise to return to Africa. Folks purchased stock for that enterprise.

alt: I know the continent of Africa, but have no idea of where and of my African ancestors may have come from.

keli1: we know they came by boat Art

jhonora: 3rd, that was done to further eliminate need on hiding another identity. Two cousins have the same family, so they can drop from sight, with only one set of folks knowing.

alt: so where/what would I go back to?

Ingrid_Doweary: I'm currently in the same boat, Alt.

keli1: correct, my home and roots are in the US..

3rdthawkins: not sure about that jhonora, I just think my grandfather had an agenda, and wanted to accomplish that anyway he could

alt: that's for sure keli1 and it wasn't on a Carnival Cruise

jhonora: alt, don't feel too bad. Garvey named himself Provisional President of Africa without ever setting foot there.

3rdthawkins: as I heard jhonora, my grandmother just went with it, she had no bad feelings towards blacks, was nice (even to my mother who was black), it was all my grandfather wh owas upset

Ingrid_Doweary: for you, Jhonora.

jhonora: 3rd, have you ever seen works of Charles Waddell Chesnutt? Nearly all his works deal with passing, including "Paul Marchand, fmc"

Ingrid_Doweary: Another link about the aforementioned topic,

jhonora: Thanks, Ingrid.

alt: Was Garvey a 'take-off' of the American Colonization Movement of sending folks back to Africa (Liberia) which was basically a 'white' movement and Garvey was like a Black spin-off of the same thing?

3rdthawkins: no I haven't, I don't think my grandparents were that smart, it was almost like a spare of the moment thing. My grandfather wanted something he couldn't have because he was black, he got so upset that he hated himself and began hatting his own race, how he talked my grandmother into it remains to be known thinking too much alt lol rofl

alt: I guess so 3rdthawkins

3rdthawkins: it sure does play into their hands alt

alt: but ehn you get old you see 'trees' when there is no forest LOL

3rdthawkins: surprised they didn't help out (if they didn't)

jhonora: In my opinion, 3rd, passing is never spur of the moment. I would look into it carefully. I have worked with several post-passing families. alt, in my opinion, Garvey was missing a few screws.

alt: I tend to agree with that assessment jhonora

Ingrid_Doweary: It is my understanding that the Back to Africa movement in the late 19th century with Bishop Henry McNeal Turner of Atlanta was different from the Garveyite movement.

3rdthawkins: I don't know, I'm looking at my grandparents, their's isn't the traditional passing jhonora lol jhonora and alt, yeah, I would think so

alt: well y'all it's been enjoyable thanks for yoru 'ear' laters.

jhonora: 3rd, I might of missed something. How were they different?

3rdthawkins: well, sitting here in chat for the past two years listening to everyone's thoughts on passing and talking about people who pass, and reading a post from a few years ago about people's families who past. My grandparents' were different, they were more focused on convincing their kids that they were white and not black, but they KNEW they were black my grandfather had dark skin a few (my dad included) wanted to date black and not white

jhonora: How did "he" convince the kids, then?

3rdthawkins: others dated non-white non-black men

keli1: I have lots of relatives that basically passed or choose to not say anything about their race, especially if no one asked them

3rdthawkins: he basically didn't jhonora but some of them learned to view themselves as white, as he wanted

jhonora: So the kids knew from the get-go they were black?

3rdthawkins: not sure when they knew or found out jhonora, but I have a good idea they knew something was up

jhonora: I assume they were all fair like their mother?

3rdthawkins: most of them, yes, I would think. My dad later in his life was tanned, and his brother I think was dark I say tan, I should say a light brown complexion

jhonora: I'm a little confused, its hard to navigate as white and have a dark dad. I.e. having friends, colleagues over? Courting?

3rdthawkins: right my grandfather used his mother's Indian heritage to explain the dark skin

jhonora: So day-to-day what did the parents work as? Socialize as?

3rdthawkins: white

jhonora: Did their "passing' involve a move of any sort? To new town or part of town?

3rdthawkins: funny story, kind of, my dad was telling my mom, my grandfather was going to work and was trying to convince the white folks that he was white. They kept calling him N***ger, so he (my grandfather was upset), my father told my mother "I don't care how white he think he is, they;re not gonna acept his black a**" yes, Washington, DC jhonora I have a relative, my grandparents' cousin, I think she is dark skin, she gave to visit them in 1962, she was going to visit back there some time later on, but my grandmother was like "Tom don't think it's a good idea for you to come down" because they were trying to get their kids to look at themselves as white and not think they had black in them

jhonora: Well if you're just one generation removed and you know, their indoctrination plan failed. If he had hard time convinving employers, that failed. Did y'all benefit at all or was it a big joke?

3rdthawkins: I never knew my dad personally and so never knew my gf, I just know from oral history and my own research my own observation, that is why I am continually researching them now, between 1940 and 1960 trying to get a good idea of their thinking, the when, where and how, so I can get my story straight and find proof to my own theories

jhonora: To me, it seems as though your family's story is not so much unique as it is y'all weren't good "passing material" to begin with. lol

3rdthawkins: I don't think so either, my grandparents', as I was told, were not happy when my dad married his first wife, who was black but there was tension

jhonora: This is interesting. As I said, passing was/is extremely common here and I know several 'repatriated' families. Keep us posted as to your progress. Would make great article.

3rdthawkins: I think he hated himself and consequently his own race, because he was not accepted on that account. He didn't disconnect from his family totally, just didn't want always be on the short end of the stick, and wanted his children to advance in the world

jhonora: Let me guess, were your father & his siblings pushed to be not only white but super-accomplished?

3rdthawkins: I haven't delved that deep yet, but from what I heard about my father, I would say yes, too the point that my gf accused my father of making excuses when being discharged from the Marines because of night blindness he had. My sister and I believe that may have what caused him to "rebel" and "Retailate" against/towards his father

keli1: where are you Jhonora?

Ingrid_Doweary: I've heard of color blindness, but 'night blindness' is a new concept to me, 3rd.

jhonora: Part of that is when you have all the graces, contacts, and credentials of "decent" "upstanding" "patriotic" "civic-minded" white folks, then they are less likely to look hard at you but at the aura around you. keli1, I'm in New Orleans.

3rdthawkins: yes, that is a disease Ingrid_Doweary, my aunt is also partially blind, as she told me

Ingrid_Doweary: Oh okay.

3rdthawkins: probably so jhonora, maybe my grandfather was just mean

keli1: okay, I wasn't sure, have you been there long, is it home?

3rdthawkins: or unreasonable, as most fathers/men are toward their kids, especially during those times era

Ingrid_Doweary: I stand corrected, 3rd. Night blindness causes issues for driving at night. I heard about that years ago.

3rdthawkins: I will have to get close to someone in the family to be able to find out just how educationally and occupationally harsh he was. My aunt did tell me that he would tell his boys to "pick up a trade" so there was some standard he set for them

jhonora: Yes, keli1, I'm second generation New Orleanian, and eleventh or twelfth generation Lousianian.

3rdthawkins: yes, that is the problem my father had Ingrid

Ingrid_Doweary: I understand now.

keli1: wonderful, my cousin used to live there, for over 30 yrs but lost his house in katrina and moved to Atlanta, he worked for one of the jazz fests

3rdthawkins: maybe if my mother threw him in a dark room and kept it dark, he would have stayed around, lol .........well, he wanted to stay around, it just wasn't working

keli1: I can taste a cup of coffee and benya

jhonora: lol Sounds like you may have a book or something 3rd.

3rdthawkins: yeah, I may do that jhonora, alawys thought about that, that is one reason why I am doing family research and researching my grandparents one reason why I started

jhonora: I'm sorry for him, keli1. Atlanta is a world apart from here. I know he taught you better keli, it's beignet lol

keli1: actually he didn't, butt my past in speaking french should have, he was there over 30 yrs, Badi was his name, did a lot with producing some of the show, etc excuse my spelling been writing for the past 3 hours and now words are getting to me

jhonora: 3rd, If it'd not too delicate of a subject, could some of the subconsciously internalized anti-black led to your parents' splitting?

3rdthawkins: partially yes, but there were other circumstances apart from that that caused them to to be together they weren't married for one caused them NOT to be together he was married for another

jhonora: I see. Well, I wish you best in your research. You have your hands full. Hope relatives are cooperative.

3rdthawkins: ty,

Ingrid_Doweary: Well good hunting everyone. Talk with you next time.

jhonora: Good night all!

3rdthawkins: good nite jhonora

18 Dec 2002 :: 1 Feb 2009
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