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2014-03-04 • Finding Patsy


Start: 12:09:09
End: 13:36:50
Chatters: alt, AYWalton, Khathu, kutoja, Selma, vkn

Selma: Ok where is everyone? Well its about time.. LOL

alt: Hello Selma, how you doing today?

Selma: Cold..

alt: I got carried away looking at census records for my Allen lines from 1840-1900 in Ross & Franklin Counties of Ohio

Selma: I saw..its great

alt: warm weather is on the way .... it's 19 degrees here this AM LOL

Selma: Yes..its in the 20's here...Prof Dru is in Florida for a conference sending pictures to make us feel bad

Khathu: Hello alt and Selma

Selma: Afternoon Khathu Khathu..I see a new biography of Stokley Carmichael..has just been published

alt: Yes, I saw that... shame on Dru!!!

Khathu: Yes, I saw that as well

alt: Hello Khathu, how you doing?

Khathu: I will probably pick up a copy soon I' m okay

alt: wonderful, but just okay? LOL

Khathu: busy

alt: Selma, with all of the talk on "12 years a slave" I went looking for my Patsy and found her in the 4x great-grandmother story of Martha Allen.

Selma: Ah

alt: at least ... one of my "Patsy's"

Khathu: I am confused alt. What do you mean by your own Patsey

alt: the line I'm seeing about Patsy asking "what is going to happen to me"....... well, my story is that this is what happened to one of my "Patsy's"

Khathu: I still don't understand so is it just an enslaved female ancestor that one has documented during and after slavery

Selma: The article with the reporter looking for Patsy.."people told her it might take a year"...that was an understatement...

Khathu: is obvious that she is not a genealogist because her strategy was not very good. I would never just travel to a location without doing research before hand.

Selma: No it was not good...thought she could just drop in the middle..many people do think that is the way

AYWalton: Good afternoon, all. hi alt Hey Khathu, hey Mizz Selma!

Khathu: She should have documented Epps first and then the slave owner he acquired Patsy from And tried to reconstruct Patsy's family. It is possible Patsy could have had siblings that were sold with her Hello AYWalton

Selma: Everything you ever wanted to know or not know about the slave owning family

alt: Khathu, My Patsy was sold down South (Alabama) at the age of three (3) in 1808 by her slave owning father.... I find her as a married woman in the 1840 census and follow her thru to her death in 1907 thru census records .... So, I'm saying I found one of my Patsy's.

Khathu: That is the key to being successful

AYWalton: I think the reference to one of his Patsy's is a metaphor, meaning that we all have Patsy's--ancestors who were driven hard, and who suffered, and who may or may not have survived long enough to see freedom.

Selma: Afternoon AY

alt: Hello AYWalton

Khathu: So I was correct alt - documenting an enslaved female ancestors during and after slavery is a "Patsy"

AYWalton: I have a "Patsy" called Kitty who was the grandmother of my gr. grandmother Sallie. She was brought from Mississippi, to Indian Territory as a slave of the Choctaw Perrys.

Khathu: As opposed to an enlsaved female ancestor who you know nothing about

alt: just using that name as in the 12 years a slave story line.

AYWalton: well, it can be anything you want it to be. I see a Patsy as one whose fate you may have been uncertain, like Patsy in 12 Years a Slave, and the follow up article. My Kitty, was the mother of Amanda, who was Sallie's mother. I only know her by name, but have little to go on about her, showing that she survived and how long that might have been.

Khathu: I'm just trying to be clear on what people meaning when they say their "Patsy"

AYWalton: it might be something different for someone else.

Khathu: So the common things that all of the "Patsy" have in common is that they were enslaved and sold

AYWalton: I think it is a term that is still evolving. The question about what happened to Patsy has just emerged in the past 2 days. who knows, khathu---make it what you want it to mean.

Khathu: No the discussion was in reference to alt comment about his "Patsy"

AYWalton: and only a handful of folks have even responded to the post speaking about their own ancestors. The concept might die as quickly as memory of the article in Vanity Fair dies.

alt: Khathu.... here is my Aunt Patsy story

AYWalton: So there is no real definition. Yes, I fully understood what he meant in the context of "what happened to Patsy."

Khathu: I am not looking for a definition just what it mean to people who are referring it I guess keeping the Patsy in the narrative my "Patsy" would be Jane. We don't know if she lived to see freedom or died enslaved.

alt: and in the newspaper article she is even referred to as "Aunt Patsy", her name being Martha and Patsy being a nickname

Khathu: She was the mother of my gg grand Julia and were owned by Robert F. Whitaker I and then his son James W. Whitaker in Bastrop and Red River Counties, TX I read your article alt.

AYWalton: I have a couple of Patsys. Kitty, Martha, Minerva, they are the ones that I know by name.

Khathu: I always wish my ancestors lived in urban areas as opposed to the rural country side

alt: yes, I have several "Patsy's" also AYWalton

Khathu: Hello vkn

AYWalton: Greetings, vkn!!!!!!!!!!

Selma: Afternoon vkn.. AY..see where Dru is sending us "sunny" pictures from Florida?

vkn: Good day alt ayw khathu Selma

alt: I'm just fortunate that this one's life spanned 100+ years and we have plenty of documentation to support her story... at least from 1840 until her death in 1907. Hello vkn

vkn: Great family story alt

AYWalton: Instead of heading to Roots Tech in the middle of blizzard season--we need a Tropical Roots event in Florida during that time of the year! All this snow is such a downer.

Khathu: That is good alt

vkn: Weather is woeful

alt: vkn, I got your message on the Homestead Act of 1862 and how it might relate to Ohio.... There was NO land in Ohio that was a part of the Homestead Act, all of Ohio land had all been platted and tracted prior to 1862.

AYWalton: has it melted down in Atlanta vkn?

vkn: oh ok alt thanx. All is melted AYW

Khathu: Why do people assume if a person of African descent is listed as white on the census that is an indication s/he is passing

alt: beats me Khathu .... could just be an enumerator mistake

AYWalton: Making assumptions requires little research, or further investigations. Kind of like people inventing some kind of law that Mulatto really meant Indian and that folks decided to "pass as black" so folks won't think they are Indians. I get that all the time.

alt: what puzzles me is why do people look at just one particular record and think that tells the 'whole' story in the life of an ancestor

Selma: Or folks think the census taker "asked" them what to put down...

AYWalton: exactly that amazes me, too.

Selma: in terms of race

Khathu: I agree. I thought I was going crazy

Selma: If you "stayed" in your community ..and they were from that community..they "knew" what you were

alt: Mulatto is another one.... I see some of my folks listed in some records as Mestizo's...... a Black & NA mixture that a lot of people are calling Melungeon

Khathu: Someone was arguing with me because I did not agree with her assertion that Solomon Northup's daughter was passing for white based on a census record

AYWalton: exactly alt.

Khathu: People think that mulatto mean that someone has one Black parent and one white parent

Selma: Bottom line it meant "you ain't white"

Khathu: The enumerator instructions do not describe Mulatto as that

alt: the more I read in the book Solomon Northup was one "naive' person and lived in a "bubble" prior to his kidnapping rIMHO

AYWalton: But most people do not read the instructions.

Khathu: I agree alt.

AYWalton: I think you are right.

Selma: too

AYWalton: I think that is probably what lead to his being tricked.

vkn: Solomon forgot he was Black

Selma: Yes..vkn

Khathu: I think the reason why the movie did so well was because it was not a movie about slavery per say but more about a Free man kidnapped, sold into slavery and eventually got his freedom vkn - it was classism

AYWalton: He did live in a bubble, and the lack of understanding that they were vulnerable even though they were "free" is what led to his being kidnapped.

alt: he sure did vkn.... not sure I would have left my home State as a "free' person even if I had freedom papers in my hand.

Khathu: He did not identify with the enslaved people It was definitely an issue of class

AYWalton: He had no close hand knowledge or even concern or compassion for those enslaved.

Selma: Probably not

alt: Not at all Khathu, even tho' he knew of slavery and the dangers of being kidnapped

AYWalton: And sadly this is what happens to many of us--we see life through our own filter of privilege.

Khathu: It is similar to rich people not being able to identify with poor people

AYWalton: Kind of sad.

Khathu: People live in their own reality

AYWalton: true

alt: his story makes me wonder about a 2x great-grandfather who went west to California with a wagon train in the late 1850's.

AYWalton: another part of the story---we have the question of what happened to Patsy----another question

vkn: Blinders Village lol

AYWalton: What happened to the family during the years he was gone? Were they active in the UGRR? Were they part of an abolitionist movement?

vkn: I see the legal genealogist blogged re Patsy

Selma: Lupita was haunting in the role..although I was happy for Solomon .. it was Patsy's character who stayed with me

AYWalton: Yes Judy wrote an interesting piece. I have to re-read the book to see if Patsy stands out that much.

Khathu: I wonder what happened to the children whose mother was enslaved with Solomon

AYWalton: I don't recall.

Selma: Don't know if they were active..but they were pressing his case

alt: I think his descendants touched on that part of the story Sunday night on C-Span3 AYWalton .... UGRR involvement & abolition after his release and his efforts with Frederick Douglass

Selma: Yes...the mother too khathu..

Khathu: AYWalton, Patsy's character doesn't stands out that much in the narrative

Selma: I only went to the movie because of Seventies..cause it is hard enough to read the documents

AYWalton: I did not recall that it did.

Khathu: I think the mother eventually died due to a broken heart

vkn: Alt the descendants, I thought, protested too much re intelligence of Solomon

Khathu: Or I thought she did.

alt: Selma, I'm reading the book now .. it's online & free LOL

AYWalton: I have to watch that program. I have it on my Kindle.

alt: I thought so too vkn, but I guess that is 'family “pride"

Khathu: It can also be downloaded from amazon for free

vkn: The DVD can be purchased of the movie for about $14.00

AYWalton: I won't purchase the DVD.

alt: I'm finding the ancestry of Solomon Northup more interesting than the 12 years a slave aspect

Khathu: I work for NSBA and they are partnering with Steve McQueen, Montell Williams and others to create an edited version of the movie to distribute to high schools throughout the country.

Selma: He was probably "wiser" after he was freed alt

AYWalton: I suspect he was, Selma.

alt: no doubt Selma

Khathu: He definitely had a different perspective on life

AYWalton: And learned that everyone who smiled at him was not his friend.

Khathu: and what it meant to be of African descent

vkn: Now AYW that was/is the major lesson

AYWalton: his story may have put his entire line of descendants on a different trajectory, I suspect.

Selma: Or that everyone who "friends" you on Facebook is REALLY your friend

AYWalton: I say that only because he was probably not the only person living in a bubble. lol @ Selma Kind of like that football player last year who thought he had a girlfriend, and then she "died" and he was in mourning. Turned out that she never existed. He believed in emails that turned out to be fake.

Selma: Oh please AY..I almost forgot about that

vkn: lol ouch

AYWalton: and the young lady who is missing---a medical doctor---she believed that she was going to marry the gospel singer Marvin Sapp, from Twitter messages with someone.

Khathu: Wow

alt: no doubt AYWalton on the bubble thing .... We have today "colored folk" today who think they are "above the fray" so to speak.....

AYWalton: quite true, alt.

Selma: I guess we all have our own delusions

AYWalton: but with our people such delusions can be deadly.

Khathu: There are very few people that I have to look up to

Selma: Yes..I know khahtu..I remember meeting you at AAHGS Good idea alt

Khathu: Have a great day everyone.

Selma: Afternoon kutoja..

AYWalton: Hello Kutoja.

kutoja: Hi Folks

Selma: See you came back was gonna tell you I have 2 books on Blacks in Maine

kutoja: my collard greens came out wonderful really

Selma: Hope you threw a Hamhock in there

kutoja: what are the name of the books

Selma: Let me check

alt: and they will taste better tomorrow kutoja LOL

vkn: Why no collards before now kutoja

AYWalton: what is the story with the collards?

kutoja: I never knew how to cook them

alt: and you had a restaurant?????

vkn: and did you also make cornbread kutoja

AYWalton: perhaps it was not southern cuisine, alt. :)

kutoja: I found out my great Grandfather Samual Stokes is Cherokee

alt: I guess not AYWalton

kutoja: no corn bread I need a cornbread recipe

Selma: Ok one is Black Bangor AA's in a Maine Community 1880-1950 by Maureen Lee

kutoja: Thank You

Selma: Buy your self a box of Jiffy Cornbread Mix

AYWalton: are you from Maine kutoja? or where do you live?

kutoja: No I'm from Connecticut

Selma: The other is Maine's Visible Black H. H. Price

kutoja: I live in Northern Maine

vkn: in what record set did you find Samuel kutoja

AYWalton: I see. Has your family lived there long? Or what took you from CT to ME?

kutoja: Mars Hill a tiny town only 2 blk family’s here

alt: where was your Cherokee great-grandfather located kutoja

Selma: I thought you said they were Freedmen kutoja?

kutoja: My wife is from Maine On my grandfathers side freedman grandmothers fathers side cherokee

AYWalton: Freedmen as in folks from I.T., or freedmen from parts of the south?

kutoja: parts of the south

AYWalton: ahh ok.

kutoja: My restaurant was classic American food burgers fries fish etc

alt: and free in the south prior to the Civil War?

kutoja: not sure

vkn: How might we assist kutoja ?

Selma: So on what record did you find him kutoja?

AYWalton: I thought I saw something that said Seminole Freedmen. My mistake, I guess.

kutoja: My Grandmothers name is Flora Stokes Stiggle maiden name stokes

alt: How are you using the term 'freedman" kutoja?

kutoja: Her mother was Anna Pearl Stokes from Millsboro Delaware Her maiden name was Wood her husband was Samuel Stokes my aunt said he was close to full blood Cherokee

alt: so the surname progression is Wood, Stokes, Stiggle, right?

kutoja: Freeman is the term the Oklahoma Seminoles said my other Grandfather William Stiggle was connected to

AYWalton: where was he from kutoja?

kutoja: Philadelphia Grandfather Stiggle Grandfather Stokes North Carolina

AYWalton: I have to leave folks. Have a good afternoon.

Selma: The term Freedmen used by Indians refers to their "slaves" in Indian Territory kutoja

kutoja: oh

Selma: The ones in Indian Territory that becomes Oklahoma were part of 5 Civilized Tribes..what made them "civilized" (using the term loosely) was that they practiced chattel slavery

kutoja: What was chattel slavery

Selma: What do you think

kutoja: beating someone

vkn: Lots of reading for you to do kutoja

kutoja: yes

Selma: Meant that they sold you at will and you ranked with their livestock and other worldly possession..

kutoja: Sad

Selma: Yes..sad..and American History

alt: kutoja, you have to excuse me, but your questions and comments almost seem as if you are "testing" us.... are you???

Selma: Ok folks..time for me to run Bye

kutoja: No no test I just do not have a college degree

alt: Then as vkn says, "you have a lot of reading to do" best wishes

vkn: Kutoja are you of mixed race?

kutoja: Not really but was raised by whites at age 13 you would think I was mixed if you looked at me

alt: As I said yesterday kutoja, our questions are meant for us to be able to understand your situation better so that we may be able to help you in this search for family history.

vkn: Excuse me but I ask because it appears you are just discovering the Black side and that is to be admired

kutoja: I very sad to say but yes embracing the Black side

vkn: Well we can help remove the sad to some degree

kutoja: I appreciate all of you more than you know

vkn: Did you read alt’s Tribal Pages You will see from that site that we are all mixed

kutoja: No I'm going to try to do that today yes we are Have a great day peace & blessings

alt: you too

18 Dec 2002 :: 1 Feb 2009
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