*LunchBunch

Start: 12:03:21
End: 13:30:43
Chatters: alt, daviss, Khathu, Selma, Seventies, vkn

Khathu: Hello vkn

vkn: Howdy to you Khathu http://tinyurl.com/l27wzdr Interesting talk re Plutocrats

Khathu: very interesting topic

Seventies: hello Khathu and vkn

vkn: Good tips on slave period research Khathu Good Howdy Seventies.

Seventies: Always good stuff from Khathu

Khathu: Hello Seventies

vkn: I am learning to use dragon dictate to ease writing/typing

Khathu: Hopefully people will pay attention to the tips I have a questions regarding probate records

daviss: hello khathu, Seventies and vkn!

Khathu: Hello daviss

vkn: Howdy Daviss did you get mail

Seventies: hi daviss

Khathu: Are there any experts in this area here

daviss: I have not been in email yet vkn, I will check. I am running a tad late this morning

vkn: okies my mail clint is acting tricky today

Seventies: In my experience, the people who help me the most at the courthouse are the people looking for land deeds...

Khathu: Would the probate process continue even though the heirs including minor children relocated to another state? And if so, would the case be transferred to the new county and states

daviss: rough sleep last night so I still have not gotten it together yet

Khathu: of residences?

Seventies: hi alt

vkn: Good howdy alt

Khathu: Hello alt

alt: Hello folks... daviss, Khathu, Seventies & vkn

daviss: Not sure about way back when khathu but in these days it is handled in the same court

vkn: Give us a try Khathu re Probate record sets

Seventies: Good question. In my case, the probate land division took place in MS though the heirs left the state. Took a much longer time to resolve though.

Khathu: Here is my situation - Jameson Moody died intestate in Chesterfield County, VA in 1842. His wife Mary died intestate as well the following year. At the time of their death there was four minor children. Their eldest son James H. Moody served as the administrator. In 1857, the James H. Moody and his siblings including the minor children relocated to Fairfield, Freestone County, Texas

alt: Khathu, the case of my 2nd great-grandfather .. Lat wiill & Testament "probated" and resolved in California .. heirs were in Ohio at the time of his death....

vkn: Intestate indicates letters of Administration to me Khathu

alt: the executor of the estate was located in California, but the property assets were in Ohio.

Khathu: I am trying to find a final settlement of the estate and it just dawned on me that although the probate processing started in Chesterfield Co., VA, the children were still minor when the family arrived in Texas. I guess I will pick up my search in Freestone County for the final settlement since I was not able to locate one in Chesterfield Co., VA

Seventies: The property in question were the enslaved and not land, right?

Khathu: The last document I have from Chesterfiled County, VA is dated 1853.

daviss: If in fact it were started in one place there would have to be an entry in the courthouse files stating that Khathu

Khathu: enslaved property, land, livestock, furniture, books, etc.

vkn: Khathu seems there would need to be a dismissal in the initiating county/state

alt: here is another example.. 3rd great-grandfather died "intestate" this is an estate settlement paper.... the plaintiff was the ancestor who lived in California, all others were in Ohio. http://tinyurl.com/kg6hyyr

Seventies: Do you think Mary and James Jr. would've sold the property to move out to Texas?

daviss: stating the case would be transferred and terminated khathu

vkn: ....and such accounting may be in "loose papers"

Khathu: It started in Chesterfield Co, VA for sure.

vkn: Agreed Daviss

alt: my example is dated 1864 Khathu

Khathu: Seventies Jameson and Mary never lived in Texas, their children relocated to Texas about 10 year after their parents death

Seventies: ah okay

Khathu: Thanks alt

vkn: In my Alabama probate experience, administrator must reside in Alabama

alt: yw Khathu, I would think that each case would have it's own "peculiars", but the laws of inheritance would be universal in the U.S. of A.

vkn: Agreed Alt

daviss: In one of my many jobs lol I was a Deputy Clerk for over 6 years at the Clerk Of Superior Court here in AZ

Khathu: Most of the enslaved property traveled to Texas with the Moodys

alt: and what was your experience with 'probate' cases daviss?

vkn: Excellent experience Daviss and great background in your current life

daviss: all cases were filed through our office alt and nosey me read cases that came through. The most famous was the James Kidd case

alt: so Khathu, the Will wasn't probated/finalized even 10 years after the death of the person?

Seventies: lol I used to do the same thing at the MP (military police station). Crime is EVERYWHERE.

Khathu: There was no will Both parents died without a will.

vkn: Khathu I would think Court would need to approve property re location to Texas

Seventies: What were the inheritance laws in VA at the time of the deaths of james sr. and Mary?

alt: so the 'intestate" case wasn't probated for 10 years?

Seventies: or just the basic laws.

Khathu: James son not James Sr.

Seventies: oh sorry.

daviss: if no will khathu someone still had to be appointed to handle everything through the courts

Khathu: It was their eldest son James H. Moody

Seventies: ok thanks for the clarification.

vkn: ...and as you know Alt some intestate are never finalized

Khathu: I have the paper trail from 1842-1853 but not final settlement or any documentation showing that the intestate was finalized

daviss: so the paper trail in Texas starts in 1853 khathu

alt: Was James H. Moody iliving n the State where his father died at the time the case was filed as "intestate"?

vkn: Howdy Selma

Selma: Good afternoon alt, daviss, khathu, seventies and vkn

Seventies: hi Selma

daviss: Hello Selma!

alt: wouldn't it seem that the the estate property would be finalized, if ever, in the State where it was 'probated"? Hello Selma

daviss: I would think so alt

Khathu: Hello Selma

Selma: (daviss..wow deputy clierk)

daviss: lol Selma

vkn: Deputy Daviss lol

alt: and if part of that estate was "chattel slaves" they would become the property of the heirs wherever (State) they would be located. heirs & slaves.

Khathu: @daviss The paper trail ends in VA 1853 i.e. that the last document I am able to locate pertaining to the probate processing preceeding.

Seventies: Maybe that document holds clues.

daviss: ok that was what I was wondering khathu

Khathu: @alt I understand that but I am trying to figure out who got what

Selma: Was anyone contesting the distribution of the property Khathu

alt: I'm just thinking out loud by typing my thoughts

vkn: Reverse directories Khathu [Grantor Grantee] books

Khathu: there was no contesting of the property of Jameson's property However there was a chancery case involving the property of the mother's Mary Moody's enslaved property she inherited from her father

Selma: It is so much better when they fight (not for our folks) but just in terms of a paper trail

Khathu: Her father stated that after her death the enslaved property was to be divided amongst her children/heirs

alt: and I would think there would be special considerations if the estate (property) included "landed property" vs "moveable property" ie.. slaves.

Khathu: The Chesterfield County Historical Society wasn't sure about this situation either I'll just examine the probate records in Freestone County, Texas Thanks everyone for your input and suggestions

alt: you're welcome for "everything" Khathu LOL LOL LOL including my confusing thoughts LOL LOL

Selma: Are the probate records on microfilm Khathu

Khathu: Yes for both Chesterfield County, VA and Freestone County, TX I have already been to the courthouse in Chesterfield County as well as LVA

vkn: Yes Selma when Alonzo Slater died [intestate] children objected to 2nd wife seeking a years support. Heirs had to apply for letters to administer estate of intestate siblings and first wife in order for case to move forward which it did to the satisfaction of protesting heirs.

Selma: Glad it worked out vkn

Khathu: Here is another probate questions

Selma: Cause it can get very, very messy as we all know

alt: In the case I cited Khathu, the widow & the oldest son were the 'chief' benefactors of the husband/father's estate (no will) and the son "paid" his siblings for what would have been their share of their father's estate... of course this was all 'landed property' ,,,, no slaves or removable property was involved.

Khathu: In his will dated 1857, Benjamin Darsey mentioned 29 enslaved individuals but in the inventory only 9 were appraised. The 9 were to be sold per the will. by the way, the inventory was recorded in 1863

Selma: The other 20 distributed to heirs?

alt: could the other 20 slaves been 'divided' up between his heirs and not need to be appraised because they weren't going up for sale?

Khathu: That is the assumption I made Selma and alt So wouldn't there still need to be some documentation of this distribution?

Seventies: Wouldn't that be in the will, who got the remaining 20 enslaved people if they weren't 'given' to the heirs before the execution of the will and the death of Mr. Darcy?

alt: another case from my experience Khathu .. notice slaves to be sold and those going to heirs http://tinyurl.com/l3abf2q

vkn: Y'all be good. Got appointment to keep.

daviss: In the will and Inv I have for 1853 for my Whites the divided slaves were not appraised Khathu

Khathu: Well the will was written 1857 but Benjamin did not die until Fall of 1862 and the inventory was taken in 1863.

Seventies: Be good vkn

Khathu: Okay, so my assumption is probably correct

alt: my case was dated 1838 Khathu

Seventies: What state was this in? Texas?

Khathu: Smith County, Texas

Selma: Is this in Chesterfield County too Khathu

alt: mine was in KY Seventies

Selma: Ok..never mind Could the Civil War having something to do with it khathu..

Seventies: I was thinking the same Selma

Khathu: Maybe but I doubt the CW would have affected the inventory. His son John R. Darsey who inherited my gggg grandmother and her three sons conducted the inventory

Selma: So to the bitter end they were adding up the inventory

Khathu: but they only added up the slaves that were not yet distributed or sold John R. Darsey was "married" to the enslaved woman Ann in which he fathered 3 children

Selma: Ok another wrinkle

daviss: married!

Seventies: see the quotes daviss... lol

Khathu: married in ("). He was never married and only had children with Ann

alt: oh, oh another set of problems... slaves could not 'legally' inherit property, even their enslaved children , right?

Selma: But he did leave them property after the War didn't he Khathu

Khathu: John died in 1887 and left his property to his "beloved son although colored are flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone and my sole heir" this was taken from the actual will

alt: okay, what is the relationship between what was happening in 1863 an 1887? are these 2 different situations

Seventies: okay y'all I gotta go. Have got to go... have a good day.

Khathu: Well it appears that John acquired Ann and their three sons (Henry, Richard and Texas) shortly after his father drafted his will in 1857. Benjamin Darsey died in 1863 and his son John R. Darsey died in 1887. I mentioned John because he was the executor of Benjamin's estate and conducted the inventory and appraisement despite the fact that he was entitled to some of the real and personal property

alt: and the wife (?) and her sons were the property of Benjamin, but she was the wife of John and the children were his?

Khathu: Yes They were definitely in John's possession by 1860

alt: so the son inherited his wife and children from the father's will of 1863

Khathu: the will was dated 1857 the inventory was conducted in 1863 but he had already had possession by 1860

alt: okay 1857-1863 they were the property of the father?

Khathu: legally yes

daviss: so he actually took possession in 63 after the Inv

Khathu: But they were not included in the inventory conducted in 1863

daviss: hmmmmmmmm

Khathu: that's why i am saying he took possession prior to his father's death.

daviss: was there an amendment

Khathu: Nope

Selma: How old were the children when Benjamin died?

Khathu: All of Benjamin's heirs who resided in Texas took possession of their enslaved property as specified in the will before his death. There was 29 slaves listed in the will but only 9 listed in the inventory of the estate

alt: okay, so he had "granted' possession of the Wife & children to the son during slavery and they were include in his (Benjamin's) property inventory.

daviss: ok so in the will John was given Ann and children

alt: were=were not

Khathu: At the time only one son was born when the will was written

Selma: Ok so this was an ongoing "relationship" in which everyone was aware

Khathu: @alt - they were not includeed in the inventory.

alt: right, were not

daviss: question khathu..was Ann and the children given to John in the will

Khathu: @Selma - so much so that John is enumerated with his sons in the 1880 but he was listed as a boarder

alt: because they had been 'gifted' to the son and were not a part of his (Benjamin's) inventory

Khathu: At the time the will was written he was given Ann and her only son Henry who was born in 1855.

alt: right Khathu

daviss: and increase

Khathu: Richard and Texas were born after the will was written in 1858 It did not say increase in the will

daviss: was future increase stipulated

alt: so they would have been part of the "gift" as "increase"

Khathu: Sixth I give and bequeath to my beloved son J R Dorsey one Negro boy by the name of Cops about twenty years old of dark complexion and one Negro girl by the name of Ann about sixteen years old of dark complexion and her children Henry a boy about two years old That is the exact language from Benjamin's will (1857)

daviss: her children not child

Khathu: she only had one child

alt: right.. and now ..... after slavery and in his will John recognizes his children and their mother, Ann.

daviss: understood but wondering why the term children meaning more than one

Khathu: we can imply he meant her increases or she could have been pregnant at the time

Selma: Maybe she was pregnant

Khathu: with Richard and Texas

daviss: exactly Selma

Khathu: Ann is deceased by 1870 Thanks for all the questions. It is making walk through my analysis of the situation.

Selma: I thought that was what you were doing.. LOL

Khathu: lol

alt: okay, as I see it, any children born to Ann after the will was written 1857 (?) had to be the property of someone and he was including them with the term "increase' whenever they would be born

Khathu: the will doesn't include the term increase

daviss: there was no usage of increase

Khathu: with none of the women of child bearing age

alt: oh, okay .....would that be an "implied" condition with the age of Ann?

Khathu: one could assume that It could have just been a given

alt: the children of the enslved woman would have to belong to someone the=any

daviss: I would think because son was co habitting with her that the term increase would have been included

Khathu: I don't think there was a need to spell it out. The will does not include the term increase at all

daviss: yes but it would have been considering the time khathu 1853

Khathu: A lot of will I see do not include the term increase

alt: not the term, but the condition of the woman (enslaved)

Khathu: I think it was a given if someone owned a female they also would own all of the children she had moving forward

alt: the "owner" of the children, would be the "owner" of the enslaved woman, right .. and in this case it would be John by the stipulation of "gift"/bequeath in the Will

Khathu: Here is another example: Third I give and bequeath to my beloved grandchildren John B. F. HH William HH James W. and Martha J M Dorsey children of my deceased son Rufus M Dorsey my Negro girl by the name of Lue about fourteen years old of dark complexion and six hundred and fifty Dollars which my said decd son Rufus M recd from me for the sale of my negro boy Tom in his lifetime and one hundred Dollars in cash to be paid out of my Estate to them by me Executors the above bequest to be equal divided between them share and share alike the word increase was not utilized in this will

alt: so he's 'touching' all of the bases with his children/grandchildren and the disposition of his (Benjamin) slaves

Khathu: absolutely...after writing this will two of his sons death. So in 1859 he added a codicil and re-distributed the property slated for those two sons to his surviving heirs i meant died

Selma: Always make me cringe or want to Holler when I read some of these wills..I have used some very bad words in the library

Khathu: I can image Selma

alt: naughty-naughty Selma LOL

daviss: I wonder what would have happened to the next child of Ann if she were pregnant and john would have died prior to birth would that child be inventoried

Khathu: they probably would have went back to Benjamin since the next birth were twins

alt: a codicl (?) perhaps ownership would revert back to Benjamin, or they would be 'disposed' to another of his children

Khathu: no they probably would have been listed in the codicil since they were born in 1858 and the codicil was written in 1859

daviss: exactly alt

Khathu: and Ann and the children would have been willed to another heir or heirs

alt: you don't need another example from me, but I have one where a child died and her "inheritance' went to to a grandchild (Codicil)

Khathu: Yes, this Darsey case is a good example of that

Selma: Folks have to run..Khathu..good brain exercise Have a great day

Khathu: thanks Selma

daviss: ok selma

Khathu: have a great day everyone

daviss: lol alt that was quick

alt: you got the lights & chairs .... my back hurts LOL

daviss: ok lol Go ASU

alt: when they go ,,, they go .... lickety-split!!!!

daviss: youngsters for ya

alt: yep....

daviss: later partner

alt: Da browns & da bucks!!!!!