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2010-09-29

** Chats Lobby*LunchBunch

** Chats Lobby

Start: 11:58:24
End: 12:02:46
Chatters: alt

alt: sitting on the dock of the bay, waiting on my friends to come by LOL Hello Khathu hello daviss, Oops, I;min the wrong place

*LunchBunch

Start: 12:02:10
End: 13:34:24
Chatters: 3rdthawkins, alt, daviss, Godfrey, Ingrid_Doweary, khathu, Seventies Soulchild, vkn

daviss: hello there khathu!

khathu: hello daviss

daviss: you are early today, are you off work?

khathu: not i am at work. i just need to vent to other genealogists about my experience with the SRT application

daviss: I hear you khathu. I don't blqme you blame hello alt!

alt: Hey I was in the wrong place LOL

daviss: I do that sometimes alt lol

khathu: hello alt

alt: vent away my man LOL

daviss: I would be willing to bet that there are others with nicknames and had no problem

alt: hello vkn

daviss: hello vkn!

vkn: howdy good peeps daviss khathu alt

daviss: What is it they want you to do khathu?

alt: khathu, I ran into some of the similar problems with OGS and my first families of Ohio application.

vkn: hope the world is turning on the axis of your choice

alt: they wanted maiden names for my ancestors who were slaves of the Reno & LaForce families.

daviss: I am just going with the flow vkn

khathu: well one of my issue is the fact that i discussed the issue between direct and indirect evidence regarding my enslaved ancestor

vkn: okies daviss

alt: and we had to convince them that the 'maiden names' would have to be the surnames of the slave owners.

3rdthawkins: hello alt daviss Khathu and vkn

alt: hello 3rdthawkins

vkn: 3rd howdy

khathu: i made it very clear before submitting the my application that i had iindirect evidence which pointed to a reasonable conclusion or proof using the GSP

daviss: hi 3rd

khathu: hello 3rd

vkn: feeling a tad tired this day

alt: now in the rules maiden names are not required for AA ancestors who may have been enslaved. how's the blood sugar vkn?

khathu: then they are questioning whether Juliet, Julia and julia are the same person

daviss: why are you here vkn..you should be resting

vkn: not bad alt

alt: you take care of yourself... slow down and rest when fatigued.

3rdthawkins: people like vkn don't know what resting is

khathu: the icing on the cake is this assume that i am some novice that just started researching as a result of AA Lives and only used the internet to search

vkn: okies daviss following your suggestion so laters

3rdthawkins: I know, my grandmother is the same way lol

daviss: thank you vkn later

alt: is this the only person they have a problem with Khathu or is this their 'straw man' for further arguments?

vkn: gonna try it 3rd

3rdthawkins: ok

daviss: did they ask you khathu if that was your reasoning :{

khathu: Now the person I was working with started that he saw some of the limitation of my application but he thought they would be overlook as if i was some type of affirmative action case

alt: oh yeah Khathu ,,, you 'credibilty' as a researcher is ALWAYS going to be an issue in those 'circles'.

khathu: daviss - it was suggested that order some microfilms from either the FHL or the Texas State Library or better yet have a family do some searching for me

alt: I see it all of the time and I'm sure it is more pronounced when dealing with folks/organizations from below the Mason-Dixon line.

khathu: I have been to Salt Lake City three time, traveled to the Texas State Library twice, visited the county in questioned three time, review 75% of all the microfilms related to Red River County page by page, and examined records in MO and AR

daviss: hmmm I am not understanding khathu. Do they want a second opinion

alt: that is one of the reasons you see me often posting links to show the documentation I have in my research and the sources for where the documentation came from....

khathu: they are stating i need to provide direct evidence showing that Jane was a residence of the Republic of Texas

alt: keep throwing your credentials/experience at them Khathu and keep citing your sources... you have more experiene in this area than they ever dreamed of having.

khathu: or a document showing how the Whitakers acquired before February 1848

alt: These folks are on the 1850 Slave Schedules for Texas?

khathu: Now keep in mind that there is not always a record for purchasing and selling of slaves

alt: exactly.. and the transfer of slaves between families. ks left that information in their wills &/or Estate papers even if those are available.

khathu: submitted tax rolls from 1840 thru 1865, probate records for 1848 and 1854, 1850 Slave Schedule for Texas, and the taxable property list unfortunately the first document that list the enslaved property by name is in 1854 they are looking solely for direct evidence

alt: but the white folks are known to be in Texas during the 1846 timeframe

khathu: the frustrating part is that i present this information and concern to them before applying

alt: do they think the didin't bring the 'slave property' with them?

khathu: They arrived in Texas around 1838. Prior to leaving Greene Co, IL around 1836, they did not own any slaves

alt: far-fetched as it may seem Khathu, but you may be coming off as "one of them smart ni**gers" and that makes you dangerous :(

khathu: the first time they are listed as owning slave is on the Bastrop County, Texas tax roll 1840

alt: and you have documented yourself 'directly' back to some of those enslaved persons.

daviss: what can he submit besides that alt to show that slaves may not even have been named or that we have to rely on age of a slave to perhaps make a connection

khathu: so they definitely acquired their slaves sometime between 1836-1840 either enroute to Texas or once they arrived

daviss: they may even have aquired them as nameless until they came to Whittier

alt: without raising their 'ire' even more daviss a subtle suggestion to them on slave research may be a course of action for Khathu.

khathu: the 1844-1847 tax roll I submitted list the Whitakers as owning two slaves over the age of 10. Robert Whitaker died in 1848, and an inventory of estate listed two negro women and four negro girl.

alt: and a suggestion that they might benefit in the research of their own ancestors if they take a look at those aspects of their own slave owning ancestors.

khathu: Two years later the 1850 Slave Schedule list his son as owning six female slaves ages 26, 25, 10, 4, 2 and 2

alt: just keep shoving the 'evidence' at them khathu and perhaps even ask "what conclusions would you infer' from the evidence?

khathu: then in 1854, the wife dies and her inventory list a negro woman Jane age 28, a girl Juliet 4, Mary 3 and an infant Lucinda

alt: among your submission was a pedigree chart showing the lineage Kahthu?

khathu: all of this information from various source provides a reasonable proof that Jane was indeed one of the slaves enumerated in the 1844-1847 tax roll

alt: showing the lineage.. as well as the time & place

3rdthawkins: hello Godfrey

daviss: hello there Godfrey!!

khathu: yes, it also included charts and graphs showing slave ownership, historical timeline of the Whitakers, deeds, land grants, and census records hello Godrey

Godfrey: Hello

alt: you might ask "what in their opinion" does the term 'exhaustive research' mean as applied to the GSP.

daviss: welcome Godfrey, is this your first time here?

alt: Hello Godfrey Yours SHOULD be a classice case study for them Khathu.

khathu: i have came to the conclusion that they are looking at direct evidence. I just wish they would have informed me of that when i inquried about their standard of proof thats the part that makes me mad - i provide them with the situation almost a year before applying i kept the emails

alt: that may be Khathu, but I've come to another conclusion as to what they are looking at... is my paranoia showing :|

daviss: I hope you expressed your displeasure to them khathu.

khathu: you make be right alt. even the historian reply to my application was condasendig (sp).

daviss: and of course show them the emails sheesh!

alt: daviss, for me that would be difficult without seeming to be in an 'attack mode"

3rdthawkins: yeah, don't go ghetto on them, lol

khathu: i basically plan on responding to each of issues using GSP

daviss: I dont mean ghetto

alt: why not.. they going KKK on him 3rdthawkins

3rdthawkins: sorry you're having that problem Khathu

daviss: you can be frustrated and nice at the same time

3rdthawkins: ok alt, maybe mild ghetto lol don't threaten anybody

alt: wb Khathu

daviss: I cant stand condesending people khathu wb khathu

khathu: his response to my conclusion that Jane was in the household of the Whitaker prior to 1848 was no proof, to Julia and Juliet being the same person no proof

3rdthawkins: Khathu in his Chris Tucker voice: "I will kick your a** dirty whiteboy!)

alt: Khathu is too educated and versed in the system to do that 3rdthawkins, but is response will be embarassing to them when they do an 'objective' evaluation of their rejection of his application. is=his

3rdthawkins: as I said yesterday, I just don't think they want you there

khathu: I realized that the weakest area of the application was the connection between my great grandfather Roach (Whitaker) Stanley and his mother Julia

alt: I'm SURE les well researched applications have been accepted... I jumped on the First Families of Evaluation Board just to see this kind of thing happening and to point out the 'subjectivity' in reviewing applications.

khathu: the only documentation listing them together is the 1880 Census. In addition, that is the only time he is listed as Roach Whitaker. Every other document from 1900 onward he is list as either R. M. Stanley, R. Matthew Stanley or Matthew Stanley

alt: you almost have to embarass thes kinds of folks into living up to their own 'standards'.

khathu: list = listed

daviss: when was he born khathu

khathu: okay i am done venting. thank you all for listening

3rdthawkins: oh, that's the guy you mentioned before Khathu that used different variations of his name

alt: and that is NOT an inconsistancy khathu

khathu: 1878 in Clarksville, Red River County, Texas. His parents were not married

alt: other evidence points to tha person being one and the same along with Julia, Juliet, etc.

khathu: absolutely. i just discovered a marriage certificate of Julia Whitaker marrying a William Turner in 1887. In 1890, she submitted a petition for divorce as Juliett Turner

alt: and folks as US why we can't get over slavery, Jeez the legacy kives on with us everyday. as=ask

daviss: I wonder if there is anything in the Freedmans Bureau Records in Red River with their names khathu?

khathu: it is the same person Roach Whitaker and R. Matthew Stanley

3rdthawkins: you must be upset alt, never seen you mistype so many words

khathu: now who in their right mind would keep Roach as a first name

alt: I am 3rdthawkins !!!!!

daviss: I have seen worse khathu and no name change later

khathu: I would like to know what type of records do they think I would be able to find during this period that would show kinship of AA who did not own land and who were enslaved.

3rdthawkins: hello Seventies

daviss: hi seventies :)

3rdthawkins: here comes Seventies, she'll go down there and kick their butts for you Khathu

Seventies Soulchild: Hello 3rd, alt daviss, Godfrey, Khathu :)

khathu: I think if he had included that in his response it would not have came off as being condescending

alt: I dunno khathu... and these are the same types of folks who prepetuate the Black Confedarte Soldier myth with even less documentation.

Seventies Soulchild: Welcome Godfrey.

Godfrey: Thanks seventies

alt: hello Seventies Soulchild

khathu: Hello Seventies

daviss: the person that helped you in the beginning khathu was that a part of his concern

khathu: he informed me last night that he had the same concerns. keep in mind i presented these issues before applying

Godfrey: BRB

alt: methinks the 'brutality' of slavery is brought home in Khathu's application and they can't deal with it.. or at least that is part of the problem IMHO.

daviss: I see

Seventies Soulchild: I agree alt

khathu: i presented documentation as well

daviss: I do also alt

khathu: thats the part that burns me up. i did send that individual an email nicely calling him out.

daviss: good for you khathu

alt: and you probably got an "it's not me response", right?

daviss: or did he get an answer yet

khathu: a call him out for not truthfully answering my concerns before i submitted my application and for thinking i am some type of affirmative action case looking for membership in SRT i haven't got an answer from him yet

3rdthawkins: that was my concern anyway when you were talking about applying, thought it was too good to be true if they let you in without problems

khathu: it will definitely be interesting to see what his response will be. mind you i was doing some research for him on an AA Revoluntionary War solider Peyton Harris at the NARA

alt: 3rdthawkins, we all wished Khathu well in this effort and admired him for even attempting to cross over into this arena.

3rdthawkins: I agree with alt, you're dangerous to them

khathu: 3rd - it is not because the documentation or research is incomplete

3rdthawkins: perhaps alt, but there has to be some doubt, sorry

khathu: my research can stand up to the GSP developed by Elziabeth Shown Mills

alt: I understand your position 3rdthawkins

3rdthawkins: I agree Khathu, it's not about that, at all

khathu: so it is not a reflection of me or my skills

Seventies Soulchild: I agree.

khathu: just don't p*@s on me and call it rain

Godfrey: No it is a reflection on the other folks

khathu: i am a lot of thing stupid aint one of them

alt: mine is just that of an 'old' Civil Rights activist who sees the indifference of Racism rearing it's ugl head once more and this time under the 'guise' of a lack of understanding the process and submitting insufficient evidence.

3rdthawkins: Khathu, I don't want to question your skills, just their integrity

Godfrey: Bye folks

daviss: how about their lack of AA history especially slavery

alt: and have you ever seen any sense of 'integrity' in thsi situation with Khathu?

Seventies Soulchild: Y'all chased Godfrey off before I could ask him a question.. lol

3rdthawkins: or their care for it daviss

alt: I'm sorry y'all, but I' probably just as pi**ed off as Khathu.

khathu: the people i was working with seemed genuine but if he saw some weaknesses in the application he should had said something to me before it was submitted

daviss: mind you khathu texas is the place where they changed the textbooks

3rdthawkins: that's my positioning daviss, this is Texas

Seventies Soulchild: I see their reputation precedes them there. . .

daviss: I would agree with that khathu

3rdthawkins: the state's motto is "Don't Mess With Texas"

khathu: daviss that whats p@#$ed me off the most.

alt: why is it 'we' have to always be fair & understanding when as Khathu so aptly stated they don't even think we know the difference between pee and rain.

daviss: true alt

Seventies Soulchild: LOL I would say something funny about making it rain, but we have elders in the room!

khathu: but i should have went with my first mind and not apply. it took me a year to finally submit my application

Seventies Soulchild: 8)

alt: I can take it LOL

khathu: when there is doubt the answer is probably no or dont do it

3rdthawkins: agree Khathu

Ingrid_Doweary: Hey everyone.

3rdthawkins: hello Ingrid

Seventies Soulchild: Hello Ingrid

daviss: No khathu, you did what was right in my opinion .Its their loss. Mabe this will change some of their process like they did when alt submitted his

alt: you know after the 'smoke' clears Khathu a letter to the SRT Board & the genealogy community in general exposing them would not be inappropiate.

Seventies Soulchild: Yes slavery seems at least in my experience very hard to document.

alt: hello Ingrid_Doweary

3rdthawkins: have to agree with daviss to, somebody have to be crucified, somebody have to be the one to expose the wrong to make it good for others

khathu: you know what interesting in the will of Anna Whitaker dated 1848 Juliet is listed as being 4 years old. The 1870 Census list her place of birth as Texas, so this in and of itself proves that she was in the state before February 1846

daviss: Thats what they need to understand especially if we dont do the submitting

khathu: alt - i think you are right about the letter. i am feeling a blog post as well

alt: that'll do it khathu, pull them out from under their 'sheets'

daviss: Khathu did they turn you down or did they ask you to submit more info

Seventies Soulchild: So I mean do you all think that there is too much credibility lent to these types of genealogical organizations? You know my motto, if its broke make your own better model.

daviss: hi ingrid, sorry I did not speak earlier

alt: I do when they abide by their own rules Seventies Soulchild .. look at how DAR has changed from the days of the Marian Anderson inicdent.

khathu: they asked me to submit more information

Ingrid_Doweary: See you folks, media duty is calling.

Seventies Soulchild: I still don't trust them.

daviss: bye

alt: and I say Kahthu to ask them to 'thouroughly" review what you have already submitted.

Seventies Soulchild: But again that's just me and my life experience.

khathu: i will bbc you all on the email i am planning to send sometime today

daviss: wonderful khathu

Seventies Soulchild: Anyone else making progress on their family trees?

alt: have you, or canyou ask, why & whatare they considering 'more' evidence?

khathu: lol @ Seventies

Seventies Soulchild: Hey I always have to throw that out there! lol

khathu: that is a good question alt. i will remember to include that

Seventies Soulchild: Sorry I missed y'all last night. Have you ever been so busy that nothing gets done?! lol that's what I went through yesterday

alt: everyday we make progress Seventies Soulchild.. just filling in the blanks and adding 'meat' to our genealogy besides names & dates.

daviss: :?

3rdthawkins: it was a party last nite Seventies, full room

Seventies Soulchild: Of course when I can't get on.... lol

3rdthawkins: but we left a seat for you just in case :) lol

daviss: khathu my heart is with you on this one

3rdthawkins: ;)

khathu: i am trying to edit this state of urban education speech for the president of the Council of Boards of Education

alt: why did you leave in such a hurry last night 3rdthawkins? that question came up after the way you signed off

Seventies Soulchild: Ok folks, I have a Genealogy request.. I haven't asked in a long while. I'm looking for Lucy Rounds. Her name may have been MaryJane during slavery

khathu: I am glad the speech writer included my comments

3rdthawkins: hurry? it was late, it was getting a little boring had to go and chat with some other folks it-I or it

Seventies Soulchild: A random act of kindness... do it for the babies.... lol

daviss: when did you last see her seventies

alt: okay 3rdthawkins, the impression was tha tsomething/someone offended you.

Seventies Soulchild: in 1870 Adams Co, MS

3rdthawkins: oh no, not at all you all were talking thought it was time for me to go

Seventies Soulchild: living with her parents Charles and Charity Rounds.

daviss: so you want her in 80 and up

Seventies Soulchild: Yes... trying to find hubby and family, if she had any.

3rdthawkins: we'll look for her Seventies Soulchild, you know we all love Lucy :} ;)

alt: Mary Jane to Lucy..that doesn't sound like a fit to me Seventies Soulchild

daviss: for you seventies I will peep around and see what I can find lol If she is a Round anywhere :?

Seventies Soulchild: lol

3rdthawkins: ok, let's stop making jokes about 70s relatives

Seventies Soulchild: ha ha ha

daviss: you can 3rd

Seventies Soulchild: I don't know alt.

3rdthawkins: ok, I'll do it for Charity :} get it!

daviss: that was quick ingrid

3rdthawkins: wb Ingrid

alt: just my opinion Seventies Soulchild, which ain't worth much these days Seventies Soulchild

Ingrid_Doweary: I'm back. Thanks, HVAC technicians had me running around for keys.

Seventies Soulchild: So alt what are your thoughts on the Mary Jane/Lucy thing. Maybe Mary Jane was one of the children listed as not living on the census records

alt: I don't know about changes to given names... surnames yes, but given names, dunno, but it could happen and probably did now that I can handle Seventies Soulchild .. a child not shown on a censu srecord

Seventies Soulchild: BRB

daviss: take care folks..

alt: and daviss makes a 'quick getaway' LOL

khathu: lucy could have been a nickname so it wasn't an actual name change

alt: could be khathu I'm thinking Lucy for Lucille, Louisa, Louise, Lucinda, etc.

Seventies Soulchild: Ok gotta go... luv's yous guys... lol

Ingrid_Doweary: Cya 70s

Seventies Soulchild: oh okay... I will definitely take a look at all of those.

alt: ditto Seventies Soulchild

Seventies Soulchild: ok thanks wrote them all down. Will take a look.... have a good day

khathu: thanks again for allowing me to vent. I appreciated all the words of support.

alt: Khathu, thanks for the update, hang in there and on't give up the fight.

khathu: have a great day everyone

Ingrid_Doweary: Stay strong, my friend.

alt: dmy turn to split.. laters y'all

3rdthawkins: alt, I am just getting accumated with my rootsmagic software, man, this is awesome ok alt, see ya

Ingrid_Doweary: Laters Alt.

alt: Oh okay 3rdthawkins .. glad you;re trying RM

3rdthawkins: d

Ingrid_Doweary: Now I need to regain my research focus.

3rdthawkins: ok Ingrid, guess Spivey is out, I probably be in the internation chat room sometime today, Spivey probably will to

Ingrid_Doweary: You'lll probably see me there, 3rd.

3rdthawkins: ok, talk to you later

Ingrid_Doweary: later,


18 Dec 2002 :: 1 Feb 2009
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