vicky: hello there alt!
alt: hello vicky & vkn.. how are y'all today?
vicky: doing great! what about you?
3rdthawkins: hello vicky and alt and vkn boy, didn't expect this many people to be in before I did
vicky: sometimes we are on the ball 3rd
alt: we're after the 'worm'... early birds
3rdthawkins: and that's a great thing, 'cause you can always get it rolling lol alt
alt: I've been rolling since 6:00 AM EST today.
vicky: vkn must be multitasking
3rdthawkins: that's early for me, too early for vicky
vicky: is that by habit alt?
alt: tween 6 & 7 vicky
vicky: same here but leave at 7 to take grand to school
Spivey: Good afternoon everyone!
alt: ah so... don't have those kind of duties any longer vicky... thank goodness hello Spivey
3rdthawkins: my grandmother gets up early too, so does my stepgrandfather, we call him Papa
alt: how old are Grandma & Papa 3rdthawkins?
vicky: lol @ alt..daughter has to be at work at 7 so get him ready and take him to school and pick him up
3rdthawkins: 77 and 80 alt
alt: okay 3rdthawkins .. my age LOL
vicky: how are you doing Spivey?
alt: thank goodness for Mama's vicky... good mama's that is .
Spivey: Fine vicky. Yourself?
vicky: for sure alt! good for me also Looks like Dr Laura is quitting so that she can express freely what she is thinking
3rdthawkins: I don't think there was a need to apologize
vicky: I guess her 1st amendment rights are being trampled on
Spivey: I did not read the story vicky. What did she do?
vicky: she used the N word about 7 times on her show
alt: her right to use the "N" word without impunity as she see's it... IMHO
3rdthawkins: I did not see what she said was wrong, but I don't watch her regularly so I don't know anything about her character to really say good or bad
alt: she's an outright BIGOT 3rdthawkins
3rdthawkins: just listening to that particular show, I understood where she was coming from and agreed with her
Selma: Good afternoon folks
3rdthawkins: but if that's how she is as you say alt, then, ok
Spivey: In what context did she use the word vicky?
alt: hmmmmm, you're very 'understanding' then 3rdthawkins, but I'll leave it alone at that.
Spivey: What was the context?
3rdthawkins: are you coming to that conclusion from that particular show alt, or do you listen to her a lot?
vicky: I would say that she used the word in more than one context unnecessarily. In fact the word should never have been used at all.
alt: no, and I don't listen to her as a regular... just like I don't listen to Limbaugh, Hannitty, O'Riley and that ilk to know they are BIGOT's
3rdthawkins: good question Spivey, I hate when people tell you that something happened and then leave it at there. I hate manipulation and mind games
Spivey: Okay, vicky. I didn't read or hear any of her remarks.
alt: in what 'context' is it appropiate for anyone to use the "N" word on a public forum like TV and/or Radio?
vicky: I was not leaving it alone, but was trying to answer Spivey without using the n word
3rdthawkins: vicky, can you tell her the whole thing, please don't just say she said the N word I have a problem with people who will tell you only what THEY want you to hear and leave out the rest
vicky: that is my point 3rd! she said the n word too easily
3rdthawkins: ok, that's a good start vicky
Spivey: If there is a passage being read from a book about America in the, let's say, early 1800's alt, where the word was used freely, then that would be one context that would be proper use of the word.
alt: and I hate it when someone tries to lay the "rational game" game on me 3rdthawkins
3rdthawkins: alt and vicky you have to understand Spivey don't know what WE are talking about, tell her what happened
Spivey: We cannot change history, and that word has been a part of American historical language for many years until the government decided to call us 'Black' instead of 'Negro'.
alt: she can read it on the News/'Net and come to her own conclusion
3rdthawkins: Spivey, it was about a black woman with a white husband (and I do agree Dr. Laura was a little harsh on her) and her husband's family would say racist things to her/about her and Dr. Laura was trying to figure out what and she basically went on a rant about, not just the lady, but all black people who are too sensitive
Spivey: Yes, I can alt. You're absolutely right.
3rdthawkins: and then just started using the N word (Dr. Laura)
vicky: http://tinyurl.com/2dnr4j2 one article Spivey
Spivey: Why was the use of the word proper in that context 3rdthawkins?
3rdthawkins: I agree somewhat of what she was saying, but perhaps she was too harsh and not understanding Spivey, I guess it came off more like teasing (can't think of the word I want to use), like taunting or something
alt: may we talk about sumpin' else..Please
vicky: sure alt
3rdthawkins: hey, vicky brought it up
vicky: I did and I say we can change it
alt: and so????
Spivey: Open chat alt, and you have the right to not participate if you don't want to.
alt: why thank you Spivey
Spivey: You're welcome alt.
vicky: lets talk about genealogy then
3rdthawkins: ok, so do you think Dr. Laura has any black ancestors?
Spivey: I don't know the first thing about Dr Laura, never heard of her until this story broke, so I can't engage you in conversation about her 3rdthawkins.
alt: with an eastern Jewish background it's possible. how bout this post on AfriGeneas?
Spivey: vicky 3rdthawkins, Ingrid_Doweary and I finally found the THIRD version of Family Search online records.
alt: http://tinyurl.com/2fqbdr8 is this poster Black?
3rdthawkins: oh yeah, I just read this this morning.....
alt: and is she mixing up Indenture with Slavery?
3rdthawkins: good question alt, it's funny they say they just started but they are back to 1700s
AYWalton: Good afternoon, all.
alt: hello AYWalton
AYWalton: Hello 3rd, alt, AmosNY, Ms. Selma, Ms. Vicky. Spivey hope everyone is well.
Spivey: Does it matter alt?
vicky: hello AmosNY and AYWalton!
AmosNY: Hello Angela, Selma, Hawkins, Spivey, alt, and Vicky!!
AYWalton: hope everyone is well.
3rdthawkins: I'm not sure if they are white or (if black) they just have a family that's really good at preserving documents and records..
AYWalton: I am multi-tasking as usual.
alt: no it doesn't Spivey, but it would help to understand what the person is talking about in this situation
Spivey: Fine, thanks for asking AYWalton. Better slow down before that candle you're burning at both ends meets in the middle!
AYWalton: I hear you, Spivey.
3rdthawkins: it's possible alt, she's more looking for Burns but has a document stating that the person in question had a relationship with his servant
alt: it wasn't 'her' record 3rdthawkins, but something she saw on Ancestry.
Spivey: Sorry, alt, can you explain?
3rdthawkins: oh, ok alt
alt: naw Spivey... read the posting
Spivey: Oh, I thought you meant the post when you said it wasn't her record but something from Ancestry alt. Sorry.
vicky: I am just reading the post alt.. looks like she just needs directions on what VA records to look for
3rdthawkins: I guess we will never know until we find more info or get more info from her
Selma: What forum is it on vicky
alt: right.. how is she trying to connect?
Selma: I can't link from my laptop..which forum
alt: Surnames Selma 1744 VA relationship
3rdthawkins: surname and family research Burn ~ 1744 VA - Relationship situation probably still the very first posting
Selma: I am pretty new to this posting
vicky: looks like he is trying to tie in Byrn to Harrell yes selma
3rdthawkins: my thoughts exactly Selma
Selma: It would be nice to know what she already knows and how she got to that place
Spivey: Is it possible this person thinks she is descended from the Margaret and Gilbert's illegitimate child?
alt: and what possible connection there would be found on an African Ancestored Forum...
vicky: she is assuming margaret is black
alt: that is really 'working' the genealogy forward from 1744.... no in-between.. no working back
Spivey: She may know Margaret is Black vicky. Just doesn't state it.
Selma: This illegitimate child of Margarets' was white...was was Margaret In that time frame in VA..the court would have specified that Margaret was not white...or at least the child was not white
vicky: you mean from oral history spivey
3rdthawkins: this is where I would agree with the rest of you who say you have to share the info you already have and give proof of your research, or else no one can nor will help you
Spivey: This goes back to the conversations we have had about people using the word 'servant' instead of 'slave' which would denote the true relationships. Maybe she is using 'servant' in the current manner of identifying slaves vicky.
alt: my point Selma.. even the mention of illegitimate in 1744 directs my thoughts to white people..... 'reasoning' says ALL black births in 1744 are illegitimate and the church & courts do not come into play
vicky: thats the reason I said assume because she has no documents to prove it
alt: since 'marriage' among blacks were not considered legal
vicky: thus oral history
Spivey: If the poster is white, alt, and comes to AfriGeneas seeking help, then I say more power to AfriGeneas which must have demonstrated an excellent track record in research. To this poster, at least.
alt: okay Spivey...
3rdthawkins: this would be the 3rd person, I think, that is non-white, that came to AfriGeneas for help
Spivey: More than that I would imagine 3rdthawkins.
vicky: you mean since you have been here 3rd
alt: huh, 3rdthawkins "non-white"?
3rdthawkins: probably so Spivey.....yes vicky..........oops alt, non-black
Selma: At that timeframe in VA there were white indentured servants...that appears to be what Mary was. Those who were indentured and had out of wedlock children had their indenture increased...and would have to pay a fine
Spivey: The first thing I thought of vicky was research I was doing in Georgia. I contacted a descendant of a person who owned the farm my ADAMS family ended up owning. She absolutely denied that her family had anything to do with slavery or, indeed, hiring Black people as servants. Some white people are not ready to . . . or unwilling to, deal with slavery.
alt: would a white man be brought into court, chastised by his church and fined for having a child with a black woman servant or slave in 1744
Selma: If the white woman was indentured and had a child by an enslaved black man..her indenture was increased, the child either male or female is indentured until age 31..(in a time frame when the life span is 40)
3rdthawkins: not unless he had a actual relationship with her alt, as in, mutual
alt: baloney 3rdthawkins
Spivey: Yep, if it increased the revenue for the locality alt. All kinds of situations are possible. Maybe this was prevalent. Besides, how many Black men and women were considered 'white
alt: exactly Selma
Selma: If the woman was not enslaved he could be, especially if the county had to support here and this child
3rdthawkins: so if he really loved her alt, you don't think he would be chastised?
alt: aw come on Spivey
Spivey: Okay alt. I went off base there thinking that was a possibility. I should have known better.
alt: this is too much for me... guess I'm not intellectual or well enough read to understand this situation.
Selma: I can assure you folks kept tabs on who was white and who wasn't
alt: I know that Selma...
AYWalton: one thing is important is that it is easy to speculate from our perspective. But actually studying the records from the era in which they were created often reveal another reality.
Spivey: Anyway, getting back to Family Search, I have for three sessions tried to have a discussion about it, but I haven't been able to engender enough interest, I guess.
alt: do y'all think the courts would even hear of a 'bas*ardly case" of a white man and a black woman in 1744.
AYWalton: and Selma's point was dead on the money---they kept tabs.
Spivey: That is the key, AYWalton.
3rdthawkins: welcome back AYWalton thanx for your input, we need it
AYWalton: that is where the many Free Negro registers come in. the RECORDS reflect the sentiments and the realities of the day. and there were some major cases where free blacks actually had white mothers and black fathers. especially in the 1700s. case in point---the Butlers of Maryland.
alt: really Selma.... a servant or a slave... not a free person.
AYWalton: the Queens of Anne Arundel county MD. (Queen is a surname.)
Spivey: I would say, though, that some of my ancestors were listed as 'white' on marriage and census records, but I doubt they were. Some were white, but some I believe were Black.
Selma: The majority of free blacks in VA in the late 1600's and early 1700's are the result of white women..
alt: Paul Heinegg's site is full of case where there are FPOC's involved
Selma: In 1662 VA passed the law, your status as either free or enslaved is based on the status of the MOTHER..
AYWalton: as much as we can't imagine it, because we think of mid 19th century slavery---100 years earlier there was a lot of miscegenation--racial mixing, with indentured white females having children with black men who were enslaved.
alt: indentured white women having children with black men both free * slave
Spivey: I thought we had concluded that, in the case under discussion, the 'servant' was White. What did I miss?
Selma: Yes, alt...both free and enslaved.
AYWalton: and that brought about the many lawsuits in the late 1700s and early 1800s.
Selma: In both cases the status of the child is based on the status of the mother
3rdthawkins: oh, ahhhh, wow (@Selma I knew that was said before, but I didn't get/realize what was said until now
alt: yes, I know Selma
AYWalton: and those cases were based on the fact that the mother was not indentured for life, so her children were not to be enslaved for life. ( a hush fell over the room............)
3rdthawkins: hey, I'm listening........
AYWalton: as I go back to multi-tasking......... (like packing!)
Selma: Make sure you take your winnings from last time..all 2.50
vicky: so now Spivey you can ask your question about Family Search
AYWalton: hey---I am keeping my two dollars and fifty cents! I was told never to blow your winnings! lol
alt: LDS & 3 sites Spivey.... I thought there were 2... LDS & then LDS beta which has a 'form' for LDS members and also a registration for non-LDS members.
3rdthawkins: so I'm not the only one thought there was 2
vicky: I have not heard of a 3rd one either
Spivey: We found the 3rd site last night alt, no registration required to use it.
vicky: where is it located spivey
alt: if you try to look at images on the "old' LDS you are directed to the new beta site where you need to 'register' as an LDS or non-LDS user.
vicky: link please
vicky: maybe on this 3rd site I can find u kno who
Spivey: http://fsbeta.familysearch.org/ Well, vicky, both Ingrid and I made finds there last night.
alt: where are the other 2 Spivey? familysearch.org
Spivey: I deleted the original site alt which was simply called Family Search. I now have Family Search Labs and FSBeta in my favorites.
vicky: u kno who must be at work because the hour glass came up sheesh and is staying oh well! I will try later AmosNY , you don't have anything to say today?
alt: okay , I see where you're coming from on 3 sites.. there is www.familysearch.org, the the pilot site and then the beta site
Spivey: vicky, I'm not crazy about doing searches at this site, not as sophisticated a search engine as I am accustomed to, but hopefully that will change as more tweaking is done.
3rdthawkins: vicky, if she keep getting in the way, then maybe you're searching in the wrong place, maybe there's somewhere else you need to search that you are not looking
vicky: any ideas on where 3rd?
Selma: Isn't the beta site the only one that is new?
vicky: I have done surrounding counties and states
Spivey: alt it was driving me up a wall. Other people were coming up with amazing finds for me and I couldn't locate the information at all.
vicky: I have done line by lines, joined Historical societies looked in the courthouses at one time or another
Spivey: Yes, Selma. I think the problem is that the original site was called 'Family Search ~ Beta' and I was getting confused by which site I should be using.
vicky: posted often
3rdthawkins: have you ordered microfilm, right, vicky? of the census years in question
Selma: I am hoping to go to NARA in the next couple of weeks vicky..I will give it my best shot
alt: the 'original' pilot site is adding more and more databases and upgrades.... I still use it and then go to the Beta site if there is an image available. matter of fact the pilot site directs you to the beta site for image viewing.
vicky: ordered microfilm, looked through them at LDS and at the State courthouse
3rdthawkins: but that seems to only be for Ohio alt
vicky: thank you Selma!
3rdthawkins: the Beta site, I discovered, doesn't have Texas marriage collection like the pilot site really wish I knew where to go and to look vicky
AYWalton: Selma you coming up to DC or to College Park? Hello Betton. Welcome.
Spivey: You know, vicky, I discovered my paternal line on the 1930 census. It took me ten years from that point to reach my paternal grandmother's records. From there, I got stuck again until I was contacted by a researcher of the SPIVEY surname who gave me information which I set out to verify. It takes a long time on some names.
Selma: I am hoping to be there enough days to do both...
Betton: hi yes it's been awhile
vicky: Alt, AY, Selma and others got me doing Community research I have scoured newspapers
AYWalton: community area studies---a great endeavor!
alt: 3rdthawkins, yes the original has 'more' databases up and running than the Beta site. I;m saying that I can see the images on the original any longer, they direct me to the Beta site to view the images... why would that be for only Ohio?
Selma: I call it Mr. Rogers neighborhood.. or who was Eddie Murphy's character
vicky: and I do all of the above over and over..
Betton: Amos where in NY are you. Native Nyer here
vicky: I take a break and then start all over hello there Betton!!
Spivey: I hear you vicky.
3rdthawkins: for one thing, alt, there's an agreement familysearch has with holders of Ohio records that the records must be have registration, since they require registration, so familysearch is complying with the agreement. But, I suppose it's so with other collections from other states too, but I haven't run into any other state like that other than Ohio
vicky: glad to see you Betton!
Betton: glad to be seen
Selma: Still researching Betton or took a break
alt: Okay 3rdthawkins, you're more up on the situation than I.
Betton: on an extended break, hit a wall and haven't been able to break through it
alt: just glad I'm researching primarily in Ohio 3rdthawkins
Spivey: But, 3rdthawkins, we're accessing the records without registration. That is strange.
AmosNY: I'm sorry everyone. I had a call on my cell phone.
3rdthawkins: yeah, that's the good thing about your research
Selma: Whats the wall Betton?
vicky: AYWalton, did they ever say what discovery was made by the person who was annotating the SC estates for Low Country
3rdthawkins: at the Beta site Spivey?
AmosNY: Hi Betton. Glad to see you join us.
Spivey: Is it possible that the site we're accessing doesn't contain any Ohio records alt and 3rdthawkins?
Betton: there are a group of Bettons on Fb and I know we are related I just can't prove it.
3rdthawkins: what site are you talking about Spivey, they both have Ohio records?
Spivey: WHICH Beta site 3rdthawkins?
AmosNY: I'm originally from Anniston, AL. Moved to Long Island in 1961.
3rdthawkins: fsbeta.familysearch.org Spivey and search.labs.familysearch.org both have Ohio records, but images can only be seen at fsbeta
Spivey: I am only asking why you say we must register to get to those records when we don't have to 3rdthawkins.
alt: I see Ohio records on both sites Spivey .. Beta & the 'original', just can no longer see the Ohio images on the original, have to go to the Beta to see the images.
AmosNY: Betton, it will take time to see if you are related. At least on FB when you see their photos you know they are black and more likely to be related.
3rdthawkins: Spivey, they say on fs beta you have to be signed in to see the actual image
Spivey: alt, my understanding is that all records [Original Beta and Lab] will eventually be transferred over to FSBeta.
AmosNY: That's right Hawkins. I have to be signed in to see the images.
alt: yes Spivey, I have the same understanding.
Spivey: Okay, 3rdthawkins. Good thing I didn't try to pull any images last night.
Betton: Their Ancestors are from the same town as mine. My gg grandfather was fathered by his owner. I'm thinking his mother later had other children, but I have no idea how to prove that.
Spivey: Well, I am going to do the right thing! I am going to register!
3rdthawkins: but registration is free
AYWalton: Well I have to run, folks. Have to go and pack and prepare to travel tomorrow. Everyone have a great day!
Selma: Have a wonderful trip AY
vicky: heyyy AY take care
alt: have a safe trip AYWalton
AmosNY: Where to now Angela?
Betton: have fun AY
AYWalton: thanks, Selma, and alt, and Betton.
Selma: What is the time frame Betton and state and county She is on here way to Reno Amos...for a presentation
Betton: 1840 Georgia, Randolph county
alt: Betton, I do some research around Anniston, Talladega & Lincoln.
3rdthawkins: guess they must have changed it Spivey, or it's only for certain records, I'm able to see some images without signing in it-in
AmosNY: That's terrific. Thanks Selma.
Spivey: It probably changes daily 3rdthawkins since it is constantly being worked on.
Selma: What years for the children's birth Betton?
alt: familysearch sites ----- ever evolving
Betton: My gg grandfather was born in 1840, I don't know if his mother had more children or not. That is my problem.
AmosNY: I'm sorry. I mistook the conversation for FamilySearch for Facebook.
3rdthawkins: they are a growing site
alt: any idea how old your gg grandfather's mother was when she had him Betton? Is she found on the 1870 census?
Betton: no, I don't know anything about her except her first name
Spivey: What is that application AmosNY?
Betton: I don't see her on any census
AmosNY: I was talking about Facebook.
Spivey: Yes. You mentioned FamilySearch there AmosNY. What is it?
Selma: So your ggrandfather provided her name at a later date Betton?
alt: so she may have been deceased when your ancestor was born in 1840?
Betton: she is on his death certificate
AmosNY: Betton, there might be a state census of 1865 which might have some additional info. Spivey, FamilySearch is another genealogy search.
alt: your gg grandfather born in 1840 has his mother named on his DC, right?
Spivey: On Facebook AmosNY?
AmosNY: No. Google it.
Spivey: By the way, AmosNY, did you get the URL to the newest version of FamilySearch? http://fsbeta.familysearch.org/
Selma: I think the Family search discussion is getting confusing
Betton: I found him on a census as a grown man married and living in greenville, alabama. He was taken there as a slave and lived there the rest of his life
alt: that is a great document Betton.. she would probably have been born in the 1820's or earlier.
Selma: I think Amos meant he thought we were talking about Face Book...not Family search..
AmosNY: I don't use FS. I just know of its existence. That's correct Selma.
Spivey: I thought AmosNY was speaking about Facebook Selma.
alt: You're possibly missing out on a great resource AmosNY
Selma: He was taken by whom?..do you know who the slave owner was?
AmosNY: I will keep that in mind, alt. Thanks.
Betton: his father/slave owner had plantations in Ga, and Ala.
Selma: Did he leave personal papers Betton? Business records?
Betton: I have not been able to find any
alt: are you a direct line male descendant from the slave owner Betton?
Betton: I am a female and the slave owner is my ggg grandfather
alt: Oops, sorry bout that
Betton: no problem
alt: not sorry you're a female... sorry bout my assumption.
AmosNY: Betton, you can find my Facebook page under Amos Goodman.
vicky: Betton what is the name of your ggg
Selma: The folks you met on line...do they have documents that record this female slave as the mother on a death certificate or other document..or is that the problem
Betton: Solomon Dyre Betton that's the problem
Selma: Ok gotcha
Betton: they are from the plantation in Georgia, but don't know the relationship
vicky: what about a will that may put them in a family
Betton: I have not seen a will and really don't know how to look for one
Selma: Do you have any idea when this white slave owner dies?
Betton: yes I actually have a copy of his obit
Selma: When does he die? How old is he in 1840
vicky: I am looking at an estate will that states ' peter slave , grace peters wife and jim son of grace as a family unit
AmosNY: Betton, try to Google the probate section of that county. You might be able to access it online.
Betton: he died in 1884
vicky: oh wow
Betton: how do you do that amos ?
Spivey: Have a good day everyone.
Selma: How old was he Bye Spivey
Betton: 78 how do you google that amos
Selma: I asked when did he die..cause he ain't leaving no will...leaving no slaves
vicky: right selma
AmosNY: You just go to Google and put in the search section.
Betton: no slaves were free by then
Selma: But he could have inherited some..what else do you know about him
Betton: can you be specific amos
Selma: Are you near a library or research center Betton..
AmosNY: Betton, are you familiar with Google?
Betton: I know he married his 1st cousin and they had 4 children. He was also the postmaster in Milliledgeville , ga yes I can google. but what do I google there is a library w/a genealogy dept.
AmosNY: Whatever you are looking for. Probate offices in every county deals with people and their wills and estates.
Selma: So he was born circa 1808...help me out vicky...do the math
alt: 76 Selma
Betton: so I just google ....probate office/randolph county ? He was born in 1806 in queen anne, maryland
Selma: Does he inherit from his father, does his wife bring slaves to the marriage..does he purchase..
AmosNY: Make sure to add the state. Randolph may be a county in more than one state. If the records are not online you might have to pay for a search by the clerk.
Betton: I don't know any of that
Selma: inherit from his mother...your search now becomes all about the white folks
Betton: ok amos
vicky: and another thing Betton. If there is a Historical Society in that county they may be able to help
Selma: If they are not on line..they may be available on microfilm
Betton: I don't know vicky, never thought about that
AmosNY: Also a genealogical society and they may be the same.
alt: Betton.. hav e you looked at USGENWEB & Rootsweb from Genealogy socieites and their holdings for the counties in question?
Betton: ok.. I have looked at Rootsweb
Selma: What have you looked for when you went to Rootsweb? I have to run folks...come back Betton..there are many avenues still left for you to pursue What county and state was that?
Betton: ok, I will. gonna run too. thanks for the info and help. Randolph county, Georgia
alt: Here is a link the FHC micriflm catalogs to search in your counties of interest Betton http://tinyurl.com/yz5hqh
AmosNY: So long all.
alt: bye y'all