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2010-06-21

*LunchBunch

*LunchBunch

Start: 12:07:06
End: 14:05:44
Chatters: 3rdthawkins, alt, AYWalton, Ingrid_Doweary, ProfessorDru, Spivey, vicky, vkn

vicky: hello 3rd!

3rdthawkins: hello vicky

vicky: did you have any trouble coming into the room hello alt!

3rdthawkins: no

alt: Hi 3rdthawkins & vicky

3rdthawkins: hello alt

alt: welcome back 3rdthawkins

vicky: How was your day yesterday alt?

3rdthawkins: thy alt

alt: okay vicky,,, saw 3 of the 4 kids and talked with the 4th on the phone

3rdthawkins: hello vkn

alt: hello vkn... how do you do?

vicky: I see it was enjoyable.. oh yes 3rd, I had forgotten you went to see your grandmother

vkn: Vicky TERRIFIC post on writers!!! How was your trip 3rd

3rdthawkins: yes vicky, it was a good experience to meet a lot of my cousins and some of my aunts and uncles for the first time

alt: I saw vicky say why she enjoys AfriGeneas.. was that Writers?

vicky: I know that feeling 3rd

vkn: Alt only one URL had a prob the other two worked fine

ProfessorDru: Greetings from Hanover County, VA! Am at the county library doing reseach.

3rdthawkins: my mother's step dad, we call him papa, had an article of my mother and her first husband when they married

vicky: great ProfessorDru! Have you had any success yet?

vkn: Great ProfessorDru

3rdthawkins: I'm trying to find that newspaper, I believe it was called the Arizona Tribune, are you familiar with that vicky

vicky: thanks vkn

ProfessorDru: Just found the first marriage surname and maiden of a "Miss Catherine" who owned James A. Fields' family.

3rdthawkins: my mother said it was an AA local newspaper

alt: oh, okay vkn... I used URL's because they were too large for the Chat Upload feature and the Posting size on the Forums

vicky: yes I am 3rd it is an AA newspaper. The publishers were friends of my moms

alt: okay ProfessorDru

vkn: We can work on that together alt and come up with a fix

3rdthawkins: I tried googling it, but nothing came up, East Valley Tribune kept coming up

alt: no problem vkn.. I can do it like I'm 'posed to and stop causing trouble LOL

vicky: The Arizona Tribune is no longer.. It is now the Informant

3rdthawkins: oh, ok, I saw that too and wondered if that was it

vkn: Dru is this library a new experience for you

3rdthawkins: they said they started in 1971 but my mother married in 1963

vicky: The Tribune was owned by Edward and Eloise Banks

ProfessorDru: yes, the library is very small, but they have good stuff.

3rdthawkins: ok

vicky: no the Tribune was way before 71...

alt: that's were the "good stuff' is ProfessorDru .... locally, where it happened

3rdthawkins: that's what threw me off vicky

vkn: To all please check these sites http://www.african-american-genealogy.com/

3rdthawkins: I went to their site and they never mentioned the Tribune

ProfessorDru: The plantation where the Fields family were enslaved is across the street from where I am now.

vicky: The Informant was started by the first black senator from here Clovis Campbell. His son now runs it

3rdthawkins: I wonder if there are still articles remaining from the Tribune

vicky: Thats because it is a different paper 3rd yes there are

alt: How long will you be where you are ProfessorDru? a day, a week?

vkn: and give this one to ayw when she comes in http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/oklahoma/tribes/

3rdthawkins: where would they be vicky? do I have to go back to AZ?

vicky: Some are housed in the State Capitol and some are in a museum located in the basement of the New Times

ProfessorDru: alt, until this afternoon. I've been in the area since Saturday.

alt: oh okay, ProfessorDru

vicky: were they open on saturday Dru or is this your first day

AYWalton: Good afternoon, all.

3rdthawkins: I also was happy to come home and find that my grgrgr grandmother's death Certificate was in the mail

AYWalton: Hello 3rd, alt, Ms. Vicky, Greetings VKN!!!

alt: you're on a 'roll' 3rdthawkins

vicky: hello AYWalton!

AYWalton: how is everyone today?

3rdthawkins: Yes alt, :) ..................happy to learn her father's name but still have yet to find her in 1870

ProfessorDru: hey angela--I'm in Hanover County now--finding stuff on the slaveowners of the Fields family.

vkn: I am wondering if this is ancestry playing tricks alt and dru and vicky and 3rd or who is Access Genealogy? What do you think AYW http://www.african-american-genealogy.com/

3rdthawkins: I'm also starting research on my mother' step dad's family, Lindsey and Everett in Tennessee not sure vkn

vkn: another for you ayw http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/oklahoma/tribes/

AYWalton: I have seen that weird site before. Strikes me as one of those template sites that have very little content of any kind.

alt: vkn,,,, I thought I remembered the Access thingee... everybody is trying to get in on the action ... and they all advertise as 'bigger & better' LOL

AYWalton: true, alt.

3rdthawkins: I've always run into access genealogy when googling, they are one of those very misleading sites

vkn: Well they have a lot on OK Indians AYW

ProfessorDru: Gotta run now so I can concentrate on my research.

alt: yep 3rdthawkins, they are VERY misleading

AYWalton: Access Genealogy is often cited, but I find it full of errors and don't use their databases.

alt: okay Dru... go concentrate LOL LOL

AYWalton: yes, they do have a lot.

3rdthawkins: I started getting upset being led to that site through search engines, it's basically like a dead end site

AYWalton: I think that they have made some transcriptions, and they never have any originals. Lots of human error.

alt: some of those sites that 'pop up' think we all just fell off of the Turnip Truck and don't know diddly about Genealogy. and they are the first ones to come up with whatever it is they are trying to sell usually a subscription where's vicky?

vicky: here

alt: mighty quiet in your corner LOL LOL

vicky: I was just looking at that site that vkn gave I think I have seen it before also

alt: finding stuff from 15-20 years ago.. gotta get me a couple of archival boxes for storage... I hate to throw out some of those handwritten notes & log books

AYWalton: I know what you mean. It is hard to discard paper.

vicky: I hear you alt. I have to throw anything away

3rdthawkins: speaking of throwing away, I think I threw away some information about my step dad's mother's marriage to one of her first husbands, can't find it now that I know that person was the RIGHT person

alt: you get sentimental & attached to that stuff LOL that's why I keep stuff 3rdthawkins... later on you find those insignificant pieces of paper are really important.

3rdthawkins: don't know why I would throw it away, I had it written down but can't remember where, I saw it recently, just don't know where familysearch doesn't have that marriage rec on their site yet

vicky: AYWalton, my grandaughter had to write a paper last night about the Trail of Tears. Do you think she needed my help lol and I was willing alt and 3rd, I have tiny pieces of scrap paper that I have saved lol

alt: are there images . or just hard copies of the record for your marriage sites she "off-ed" you, huh vicky.... these kids and the 'Net are sumpin' else... they can find 'stuff"

vicky: lol sure did alt just wish she had the genealogy bug. I told her I was leaving her my papers she said no thx lol

Spivey: Hello 3rdthawkins and everyone!

alt: I'm listening to a couple of CD's one of my granddaughters made for me.. Father's Day gift.... she got into her Dad's Jazz collection and burned some good stuff LOL

vicky: got them all mixed up just right for you alt

alt: really did vicky

vicky: alt where does your daughter live Is she still in the service sup with you Spivey?

Spivey: Hee hee hee. My daughter is visiting and I just turned to her and gave her a dirty look and said 'Where my CDs you were 'posed to burn for me?"

vicky: lol @ Spivey

alt: no, this is granddaughter vicky... daughter is out of the service , bought a home and lives here in springfield.

Spivey: Now she trying to pretend she don't know what I'm talking about! ROTFL.

alt: they can be that way Spivey LOL but don't you forget about sumpin' for them LOL

Spivey: You'd think you had abandoned them at birth and never did ANYTHING for them!

alt: ain't it the truth

Spivey: I don't know if I told you all about talking to my cousin whom I had not talked with in over 50 years.

vicky: are you getting anywhere with your research Spivey no, I dont recall that

alt: no Spivey... how did that go?

Spivey: Even though we didn't talk, our mothers kept in touch. His mother is 85 and don't wanna talk 'bout 'nothin' 'cause it might get on the Internet. lol

3rdthawkins: is it the one about the marriages?

Spivey: I didn't know he was doing a bit of research off and on. Now I have a whole new problem. LOL.

vicky: how so

Spivey: I always thought Coleman ADAMS was the patriarch of my Adams family branch. Coleman had a son named Jessie. My cousin says there was another Jessie ADAMS who started the family in Georgia.

vicky: oh!!! thats interesting

Spivey: This Jessie ADAMS, my cousin says, went to Georgia from one of the Carolina states. Very, Miss vicky, especially since COLEMAN was the owner of the family farm along with his wife Violet. I am wondering if Jessie was a sibling of Coleman who was born in Virginia.

alt: Is the "new' jesse older than your Coleman?

Spivey: He doesn't know for sure alt but thinks the date of birth I gave him for Coleman made him around the same age as Coleman.

alt: okay,, so they could have been Bros, Uncle/Nephew ar sumpin' like that

Spivey: What I lack is records of Coleman's birth in Virginia. I know his mother's and father's names from the death certificate of his sister who lived on the family farm with him.

vicky: 3rd did you get any new pictures from your trip?

Spivey: Right alt. I speculate that Coleman was a slave and was sent or taken to Georgia by his owner. It is possible that this 'other Jessie' was taken or sent to the Carolinas.

3rdthawkins: yes vicky, a few

vicky: have you started down that road yet Spivey

alt: that's great tho' spivey cause there does seem to be a familial connection

3rdthawkins: one we are hoping my mother's cousin make a copy of it......it is a pic of my mother, her cousin, their grandmother (my great grandmother Hannah Hughes), and one of my aunts

Spivey: -Years ago Miss vicky. I can't find hide nor hair of Coleman before he appeared on the 1870 census.

vicky: did you see the pic 3rd

Spivey: I got his mother's and father's names from his sisters death certificate, and know that Coleman was a Jr.

3rdthawkins: yes vicky, that would be the only pic I have of Hannah, save her photo on her obit

alt: pre 1870 is 'sleeve-rolling-up" time

vicky: wow, and you didnt have a digital camera either

3rdthawkins: I barely got a hand on it, my brother took it and was going to go to wal-mart or somewhere to blow it up, but never did

Spivey: I am not even sure how to go about it, alt. My efforts produced too many results [Coleman was not, as I thought, an uncommon name] and I was never able to pin any history down on him.

vicky: 49 cents at walmart

alt: me neither Spivey.. slave research is not one of my strong points Kahthu is Da Man there.

3rdthawkins: he had to pic some other relatives up to bring them over our uncles' house as we were starting our family gathering for our grandmother's birthday dinner pic-pick

Spivey: Oh, Khathu is good at finding his slave ancestors alt. You're right about that.

3rdthawkins: there was another pic my aunt had of my four older brothers when they were younger

vicky: mabe you and your cuzzie can help each other Spivey

3rdthawkins: and a pic of me when I was 8, she let us have that one, we will upload them to facebook so she can still have a copy

alt: at least he can point you to the types of record sets that may help better than i can

Spivey: But, given the circumstances, I am not sure even Khathu could help because I just don't have enough information alt. Virginia is too big to go looking for a needle in a haystack. I'll see Miss vicky. Another cousin of mine has been promising me a photo of our grandmother for the past 10 years.

alt: ah, but therein lies the joy of research Spivey... that haystack LOL

3rdthawkins: Of course there's the newspaper article picturing my mother and her first husband, along with her mother and stepfather

Spivey: lol alt.

3rdthawkins: I also saw a pic of my grandmother when she was younger, wish I could have gotten a hold of that

vicky: what was the hubbys name 3rd

alt: in lieu of a digital camera 3rdthawkins, those Kodka throwaways doing a good job of taking pictures of pictures.

Spivey: Actually alt, I was pleasantly surprised to find some Kelsey ancestors [my grandmother was a Kelsey and she married into the Adams family] on the 1870 census laboring on their former owner's plantation still.

3rdthawkins: I took a pic of that pic of my grandmother with a camera my brother had

alt: there you go Spivey... Cluster Research often helps with that haystack.

vicky: 3rd what was your mom's first hubbys name

3rdthawkins: Ronald Simms

vicky: with 2 ms'

Spivey: What does 'Cluster Research' mean alt? I've heard it mentioned here before but don't know anything about it.

alt: hahahaha just like two ss's LOL

3rdthawkins: yes vicky

vicky: wonder if he is related to some sims I know here

3rdthawkins: that's what I was speaking of a week about vicky about your Sims being from Virginia, there are a lot

alt: researching the communities where your family was located, not just relatives, but neighbors as well

AYWalton: alt that was a theme all last week at Samford. When you run out of info on your family----study the neighbors. The same laws and policies and historical circumstances affected them.

3rdthawkins: he was born in D.C. vicky I should say great grandfather

Spivey: Ouch alt! Having problems just with my family! 8)

vicky: may be different set. lol these have been here in Az for eons

alt: but you would be surprised at how the community will direct you to your family Spivey.

AYWalton: indeed, plus people don't think or realize that close neighbors often provided depositions for each other and served as witnesses for each other's life events.

Spivey: I did get into cluster research in a roundabout way, I guess. A neighbor of the Adams farm married an Adams daughter, and I was able to trace him to his probable date of death.

alt: that's how my database got to be so large.. I threw everybody in there just because they were in the 'Hood with my family LOL

AYWalton: that is why one should note who the witnesses were who signed documents. that was wise, alt!

3rdthawkins: I'm trying to find a Dock Price in 1880, I only find a 7 year old Hempstead Co. AR

alt: and the software now allows up to 99K per database... throw

Spivey: I located his third wife alt and thereby estimated the date of his death because she was a widow.

AYWalton: I had better run, folks.

3rdthawkins: Dock was a witness on my grgrgr grandparents' marriage rec

Spivey: I do have his second and third wife in my database alt. So I did something right.

alt: right Spivey.. it is surprising how those neighboring families often connect into your family lines in some manner .

Spivey: That research gave me a fit. That is why you all are absolutely right about looking at the original record. On a census record, the wife of the moment is not distinguished as being the stepmother of the children in the household.

alt: those can be tricky Spivey

3rdthawkins: that's always the tricky part Spivey, because nieces and nephews are only listed as such for head of house

Spivey: But when you see that they were only married for 2 months, and he was divorced twice, then you know that she is probably not the mother of all those children.

vicky: lol

3rdthawkins: I know another hint

alt: right... you gotta look at the 'whole' thing not, just the names

vicky: even boarders can be related

3rdthawkins: sometimes the child who was born in a previous marriage, will be listed last after the other children

alt: and then match up that census data with other reocrds

3rdthawkins: my mother's uncle 5 in 1930 but his sister was listed first (3) because she was the daughter of my great grandparents, the uncle wasn't

Spivey: In this case 3rdthawkins it was the ancestor I was just talking about who was married 3 times. When I looked at the actual record, I could see where the transcribers simply reported what was there. It was obvious that most of the children were by my ?X great aunt.

alt: right 3rdthawkins, there ar all kinds of 'quirks'

3rdthawkins: a similiar instance in 1910 with a grgr granduncle so we have to look at everything

alt: BTW, I saw on a census record from PA where the kids in a family were listed as "NS" for their birth locations. think I saved it.

Spivey: I never did find out what happened to that aunt. From the census records, he was married 3 times and divorced 2 times.

vicky: not sure alt

3rdthawkins: oh yeah, mentioning that alt, I was reading somewhere where N.S. does being Not Stated

alt: I believe it was an ABBRV for not stated vicky

3rdthawkins: being-mean

Spivey: Isn't that what 3rdthawkins was talking about the other day?

3rdthawkins: yes Spivey

vicky: all of mine just say US lol

3rdthawkins: the dreaded U.S.

alt: you gotta be different vicky LOL lOL LOL

vicky: yup! lol

3rdthawkins: well, at least we know they were born in North America

Spivey: Dang, as backward as Georgia was, they did list the states of birth on the census records. lol

vicky: makes it real easy to go down the census page to see who may have been born where they were :|

Spivey: Used ditto marks too. No mistaking those ditto marks for anything else. You're right, Miss vicky.

3rdthawkins: oh yeah, another thing, we have to be real careful when information is given about a person who is not the head of house or even related to the head of house

alt: I think these are just particular instances Spivey .. the one I saw was a HOH, his wife & his step-children..... he was probably the one interviewed and didn't know where the step-kids were born

3rdthawkins: NOT even related to HOH

Spivey: Maybe that also fits somewhere in the cluster research alt when you see a group of people living in close proximity who were all from the same European country or the same state in the United States.

vicky: sheesh, I have two different dc's where the informant was the husband. They were married over 50 yrs and still gave the wrong information

alt: exactly Spivey.. those 'ethnic' communities after all 'birds of a feather flock together' LOL grief vicky

vicky: wrong info about the wifes parents

3rdthawkins: alt, I appreciate when the head of house puts don't know/unknown or if N.S. or U.S. is put, instead of the same state the HOH was born or were the family is currently residing...........makes me trust the information they give

Spivey: That is what made me wonder if, for example, Florida had a harvesting season where many people migrated there for work. I found a number of my ancestors in Florida when they actually lived in Georgia. Some of them stayed in Florida. Thank goodness for those states' censuses.

3rdthawkins: hello Ingrid

vicky: Texas does not have state census

alt: yep Spivey, and that is often true on counties that border State lines.

3rdthawkins: don't we know it vicky

Ingrid_Doweary: Hey 3rd, Spivey and Vicky.

Spivey: Hi Ingrid_Doweary!

vicky: hello there Ingrid!

alt: Hello Ingrid_Doweary

Ingrid_Doweary: Hey Alt. How is everyone?

3rdthawkins: doing good Ingrid

Spivey: Another piece of luck alt was me finding one of my uncles living in a town where a railroad was being built.

vicky: me Ingrid, I am grumpy

alt: where is your tardy pass Ingrid_Doweary? LOL

3rdthawkins: stay out of that heat vicky lol , I've been down there, I know lol I don't know how you do it lol

Spivey: I got the name of his son-in-law and some of his children from a census record that way. Again, that also has some of the elements of cluster research.

alt: Spivey, the old saying is the harder you work the luckier you get when it comes to those genealogy finds

Ingrid_Doweary: An extremely demanding patron was trying to hog up my time and cause me to break for lunch late, Alt.

alt: okay Ingrid_Doweary, that'll work...this time LOL LOL

Spivey: That's what makes them 'finds' I think, alt. It's like striking a gold lode in a mine.

Ingrid_Doweary: Yeah right. lol lol Yall know how it is when people see you at a desk all day. They think you have nothing to do.

alt: Y'all want to know what I was doing 20 years ago?

Spivey: Yes alt.

Ingrid_Doweary: What was that, Alt.

vicky: thats what my kids think when they see me here at this puter all day lol lol lol

Ingrid_Doweary: ?

Spivey: lol Miss vicky!

3rdthawkins: what were you doing 20 years ago alt?

alt: http://mydatabase.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=mydatabase&view=62&sort=0&albumid=2&photoindex=97&rand=993975719 couple of programs I was involved with

vicky: and I see Ms Lucas named alt

Spivey: Neat alt !

Ingrid_Doweary: You know, Spivey. I can appreciate examining a document such as a census record more than once, because I usually can identify a detail I previously missed.

alt: my lady vicky LOL lOL

Ingrid_Doweary: That was you, Alt? Way to go, Alt.

alt: in person Ingrid_Doweary

Spivey: Oh, tell me about it Ingrid_Doweary. When Ancestry 'lost' my databases, I had to upload a GEDCOM from my computer. Some things don't always transfer and it was in re-doing them that I discovered some blatant things I had missed before.

3rdthawkins: I just need to know why I cant' find my grgrgr grandmother in 1920 or 1930 I don't understand I believe there's something to it, and a reason no way people just come up missing

Spivey: 3rdthawkins is this the information you rejected before?

3rdthawkins: what do you mean Spivey?

alt: Here's a photo of my "idol, mentor & 'girlfriend' when she was in her teens

Spivey: I can remember a couple of years ago, some 'finds' were made in your family tree, but you did not want to accept them because you believed the father of the woman's child was a different man than the one she was living with.

alt: http://mydatabase.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=mydatabase&view=62&sort=0&albumid=2&photoindex=29&rand=307937156

3rdthawkins: oh, I already solved that Spivey :)

vicky: pretty woman alt!

3rdthawkins: nice photo

Spivey: Okay 3rdthawkins. Good. Who was the father of the baby?

alt: wasn't she vicky gotta run y'all take care

Spivey: Reminds me of Josephine Baker alt.

Ingrid_Doweary: You know I'm fond of that particular photo, don't you Alt?

vicky: bye alt

3rdthawkins: it was my mother's father, L. T. Townsend, I was fortunate to be able to find him in the SSDI, I ordered it and it gave information about his parents, I did find his paternal line, now I am working on his maternal

Ingrid_Doweary: Yes she does, Spivey.

vicky: hmmm Spivey you are right

Spivey: Great 3rdthawkins.

3rdthawkins: ty Spivey

vicky: alt has some great pictures. I am glad that he shares. I have a great fondness for those oldies Black and Whites are so dramatic

Spivey: Well folks gotta run. My daughter is going to help me solve some computer issues I have. Nice seeing you all again. 'Bye for now.

Ingrid_Doweary: Yes, Vicky. Those pictures add salient pieces to the larger story.

vicky: I remember as a teen when I passed by an older person sitting down on the porch or a bus stop. I always wished I had a camera

3rdthawkins: you're giving me ideas vicky............

vicky: I took up photography in school but should have went on with it

3rdthawkins: my younger brother has a camera and he lets me take pictures with it, I did a lot in AZ, one of my older brothers going to give me a camera, I will definitely be creative with it

Ingrid_Doweary: My brother did that too. Now he's an independent writer, filmmaker and producer.

vicky: is he in LA Ingrid

3rdthawkins: My oldest brother was into photography, my younger brother took it up and loves it. It is really something great to be into

Ingrid_Doweary: No, he's in Chicago.

3rdthawkins: If you all have seen that commercial with Ashton Cutcher advertising that camera, that's the same camera my younger brother has I think it's Nikkon

vicky: yes I have seen it

Ingrid_Doweary: He has an excellent rapport with Sam Greenlee, the author of The Spook That Sat By the Door.

3rdthawkins: really good camera, my brother shot a commercial of a young artist with that camera, came out really good

Ingrid_Doweary: That Nikkon is probably a camera I need to look into. Yes, Vicky. Mr. Greenlee was in Washington, DC last November for a visual presentation of his book and discussion period. The University of the District of Columbia Kappas hosted the program on campus.

vicky: gotta run do laundry.. I hate to leave good company but.....

3rdthawkins: very good camera vicky, took a lot of pics with that, pics came out good, he uploaded them to his laptop, nice photos, I was impressed with the photos I took

Ingrid_Doweary: Cya Vicky.

3rdthawkins: ok vicky c ya tomorrow

vicky: bye

3rdthawkins: oops, I meant to say very good camera Ingrid

Ingrid_Doweary: It's all good. I understand.

3rdthawkins: did I tell you I received my grgrgr grandmother's DC?

Ingrid_Doweary: My phone camera isn't quite getting it for me. Was that the one you recently ordered. ?

3rdthawkins: lol oh yea, not Prof. camera yes it is Ingrid not your average camera

Ingrid_Doweary: Has your grgrgr gandmother's DC answered more questions for you?

3rdthawkins: well it answers to why her children conflicted on her birthplace...... and it gave her father's name or MAY have conflicted

Ingrid_Doweary: Now that you have further examined the DC, has it raised additional questions for you?

3rdthawkins: yes, like where are they in 1870 who was Calvin Williamson (white or black? married to her mother or not?) with Ozan being a Township in Washington, AR, it may explain why Washington, Arkansas, instead of Ozan, AR was given as her birthplace on her son's DC along with her son's, but Texarkana, AR is given as her birthplace on her DC

Ingrid_Doweary: As I experience similar results in my research, I try to identify a checklist of documents that could have been generated during that time period, such as real estate or property tax listings.

3rdthawkins: she was living in Washington, AR........... I cannot find her in 1920 or 1930

Ingrid_Doweary: You will most likely if you have not done so already, research the history of the county, the township and the community. You may be interested in looking for your ancestor in the local community newspapers.

3rdthawkins: I did check hope, AR on, I think it was newspaper archives, but no mention of her

Ingrid_Doweary: Historical and genealogical societies may be of assistance to you. Understand, 3rd. I got a checklist of brick walls, I need to break through.

3rdthawkins: ok Ingrid

Ingrid_Doweary: It's good chatting with you friend. See you next time.

3rdthawkins: ok Ingrid same here, bye :)


18 Dec 2002 :: 1 Feb 2009
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