2012-05-14 Polly Research • FYR
Seventies Soulchild: hello alt. How are you doing today?
alt: hey Seventies Soulchild.. what's up?
Seventies Soulchild: Nothing. Great show last night. Great history on John Legend's family. did you know about that??
alt: I knew about the Polley case, but never hooked it to his family.... They still didin't say which line of his family the Polley's belonged.. or I missed it.
Seventies Soulchild: No they didn't say. And they didn't say how the Banks were connected to Wanda Sykes either. I do wish they had the two Polley descendants meet. That would've been a nice touch.
alt: I have John Legends family back to the time frame the show mentioned and there are no Polley's.
Seventies Soulchild: Hello Daviss
alt: I have his family lines in Lawrence & Gallia Co., in Ohio back to the same time frame, but agin no Polley's.
Daviss: hello Seventies and alt!
Seventies Soulchild: Maybe its through his mother?
alt: Hello Daviss.. how you doing today.
Seventies Soulchild: Also what a sad story about his mother... aw man I had no idea!
alt: I have both his maternal & paternal lines back to about the 1840's.
Daviss: I am good alt thxs
Seventies Soulchild: Well, what did you get this Mother's Day Daviss?
Daviss: a bag of pretzels and an Arizona Tea lol
Seventies Soulchild: lol smh
alt: yes, that's another story in itself... Ron did a great job of raising those four kids as a single black man.... course with the help of his family and her's too, she just wasn't involved.
Seventies Soulchild: Well I'm glad that he's helping his mother out now.
Daviss: yep, me too seventies
Seventies Soulchild: Definitely the right thing to do.
alt: not sure if they are still together, but his parents were reconciled and remarried.
Seventies Soulchild: really? Did you see him on I believe Oprah?
alt: I saw him once on Oprah.
Seventies Soulchild: This was when he first came out. His mom was in the audience at that time.
Daviss: I also see that with some of the bb players whose mom is out there...not so much helping dad
alt: yes, I think I saw that show.. and his parents were with him at the show when he won his Grammy's.
Seventies Soulchild: ok
Daviss: heyyy AYWalton!!
AYWalton: good afternoon, all.
alt: Hello AYWalton.. how are ya?
AYWalton: Howdy alt, Daviss, SoulChile!
Seventies Soulchild: Well moms do carry you for nine months... they deserve it. IMO
AYWalton: Hope you are all doing well.
Seventies Soulchild: Hi AYWalton all is well in NY. Enjoyed the sunny warm weekend.
alt: but the Banks story is quite interesting ... indentured female & black male salve.
Seventies Soulchild: I agree. Isn't that along the same lines as the Mozingo family?
alt: I have that in my family lines.... but almost 200 years later... ca 1810.
Seventies Soulchild: I learned something new. The reason for indentured servitude from the story of Susan Speed.. interesting.
Daviss: yes it was alt..I was thinking though that he left her hanging as to why the the FPOC may have owned slaves
AYWalton: howdy fierybug
alt: hello fierybug08
Daviss: hello fierybug08
Seventies Soulchild: I notice that as well, Daviss. Hi fieybug08
fierybug08: Hello everyone *virtual waves* to Daviss Seventies Soulchild alt AYWalton
Daviss: glad I was not alone in that thinking seventies
AYWalton: sorry I missed the chat last night. Got distracted doing other things, and forgot about it.
Seventies Soulchild: It was explained on WDYTYA when dealing with Blair Underwood's family. and he did explain it during the records break.
Daviss: WS was wondering why they owned the family and skip just made a joke instead of giving an explaination or two
AYWalton: well we have to remember, he is not an historian.
Seventies Soulchild: No he's not, BUT he's a professor. I think being such he would've offered an explaination
fierybug08: hi vkn
alt: blacks "owning" family was often a measure of protection for family and also in many instances if they freed the family members laws had been passed where those newly freed blacks would have to leave the State or possibly become re-enslaved by someone other than the family member who owned them.
Seventies Soulchild: hi vkn
AYWalton: but a professor of one subject does not make you an authority of another discipline.
vkn: Good PM everyone
AYWalton: And English professor is not a historian. Greetings, vkn!!!!!!!!!
Daviss: LOL he explains "his" family on every show lol lol
Seventies Soulchild: Yes you know I'm sick of that.
AYWalton: I know---that part is tedious and unnecesarry---but it is what it is. and redundant.
Seventies Soulchild: ditto
Daviss: Did you happen to see the show online AYWalton?
AYWalton: but the voices of regular genealogists from our family have no voice. watching it right now, Daviss.
Daviss: oh ok AYWalton
AYWalton: (you know I am a multi-tasker!)
Seventies Soulchild: In addition, there are few 'everyday' families who are featured on any genealogy shows.
alt: he did state that Wanda Sykes history of an FPOC ancestor was the furthest back he had ever seen documented .. something like 1636.
AYWalton: Generations TV does highlight regular folks.
Daviss: Yes he did alt
Seventies Soulchild: I hadn't watched Generations TV in a few months.
Seventies Soulchild: Yes alt that was absolutely amazing. Isn't there a thread on the Banks in the FPOC forum?
Daviss: You do know Alt that I was secretly hoping I would see you as the genealogist on the Legend part :?
alt: could be Seventies Soulchild, I know they are documented in Paul Heinegg's work.
Seventies Soulchild: Me too Daviss, that would've been great!
AYWalton: Ok folks----a question-------it was stated on the program last night "slaves did not have marriages."
alt: hehehehehe Daviss, no way... I'm Black and an amateur (sp) LOL
AYWalton: although many of us have evidence that slaves (many of them) were indeed married and considered themselves to be--whether or not they were recorded. what is your reaction to that statement?
Daviss: I got email from Paul yesterday asking how to get into chat.. Unfortunately I did not see the email until late last night
AYWalton: On one of the groups online there is a hot discussion about that bombshell statement that was so casually dropped.
Seventies Soulchild: I took it to mean that slaves could not legally get married in 1853
alt: I basically agree with that statement AYWalton ..
AYWalton: I am sure that Dr. Barnetta White who documented many marriages would have something to say. Marriages---recorded is different from people being (to each other) married.
vkn: Daviss I've gotta learn to "explain" my family more. I see I missed a response ro a BELL post over a year ago and now Yippee I just did and am in fact in the process of connecting with a bunch of cousins. I say shout out as often and as loud as possible. (That has not always been my position)
AYWalton: and I also have a document indicating that slaves (in a small rural community) were indeed allowed to have marriages.
alt: she documented "cohabitations", but not State sanctioned and legalized marriages, right?
AYWalton: Ceremony, preacher, etc.
Seventies Soulchild: Hi Selma
AYWalton: and some folks I know are HOT over that
Selma: Good afternoon folks
AYWalton: I think from the outside looking in, and seeing life through one kind of filter---one can say that. But those of us who descend from folks who lived it from the inside----there is another filter.
Daviss: that miss may have come because you had and still have a full plate vkn!! however Congrats on the new founds
AYWalton: so the statement is more than a casual one. greetings, Mizz Selma!
vkn: Howdy Selma
alt: a legal marrige established "heirship" meaning you could have and will property.. with slaves not being allowed to "own' porperty, couls they establish an heirship?
Daviss: hello Selma!!
Selma: I took it to mean what was said..that slaves could not legally marry by state sanction laws of the day4
AYWalton: that is understood. that is true from the outside.
alt: Hello Selma
Seventies Soulchild: Sarah and Malind V Gardner 1853 Alabama State Supreme court
Selma: No alt
Seventies Soulchild: alt that was one landmark case regarding heirship
AYWalton: But the simple statement---slaves could not marry----my concern as an educator--is for the beginner. So the new researcher will never look for a husband, and may therefore move on, passing by something critical.
Seventies Soulchild: The new researcher shouldn't be looking at slave records initially anyways.
AYWalton: quite true. But keep in mind, many beginners start with assumptions---often erroneous and that can flavor---or direct the path of their research for years. and some become forever derailed because of those assumptions.
Selma: To say otherwise ..means folks start looking for county records that don't exist...what could have been added that they legalized relationships after the Civil War and emancipation
alt: now I agree with 100% Selma
AYWalton: I agree with that point.
vkn: ...and as the beginner learns hopefully thwy will know to expand the definition and meaning of co habitation and relationship
AYWalton: I speak experientially for the enslaved.
Selma: They might read an book, they might come to Afrigeneas and ask..
Seventies Soulchild: exactly. I would hope that if they don't know they would have enough sense to ask someone who may know OR try to reference it somewhere.
AYWalton: and many beginners never have exposure to classes or genealogy training.
alt: if whn y'all review the Legend story.. remind me if they ever state which line his Polley ancestors belonged to... maternal/paternal????
AYWalton: perhaps there should be more training about how to address some of those general assumptions and to point out there within each situation, they had circumstances that might not be understood, or perceived.
Selma: Need I remind all of us...that here we are speaking to the choir..and Angela is right about not have exposure...but if they are on the iternet..then they could look
vkn: The Polley story was stupendous
Selma: That was a great story in a very sad way art
alt: Imust have missed it ... and I have NO Polley's in his pedigree chart dating back to ca 1850 on both lines.
Seventies Soulchild: The internet is full of information. More than there was when I first started being interested in genealogy. There's no reason someone can't search online for at least an instruction manual.
Selma: AY and seventies..its none of my business but where were you 2 in the chat last night.. LOL
AYWalton: I forgot completely about it.
Selma: You forgot.. LOL
AYWalton: yep. plumb forgot.
alt: Selma. iknew of the Polley case, but never made a connection to the Stephens/Lloyd "Legend" family lines.
Seventies Soulchild: OH Selma just called me out.. lol
AYWalton: did not think about it till 9:30 also did ont have the TV on and missed the show. had to watch it online.
Selma: Wow..you musta had a stressful day AY..Daviss was reminding us all week.. LOL
AYWalton: not really. Had a quite day, and was busy doing thing in the children. children..........gracious-----kitchen.
AYWalton: was watching something online. lol told you I was multi-tasking!
Selma: YOu been multi tasking since you retired.. LOL
AYWalton: working harder than ever, Selma. I need a job so I can rest!
Selma: I know..I am trully impressed
Seventies Soulchild: Well I ain't gonna make any excuses. I just wanted to completely focus on the show. :}
Selma: So what was your excuse.
Selma: seventies and so what did you think Seventies..
Seventies Soulchild: So my sons and I just watched and discussed.
alt: oh, and the DNA segment .... showed that tracing back to Africa on African Ancestry only deals with direct Y & mtDNA lines... otherwise both Legend & Sykes could not get back to Africa.
Selma: We actually didn't chat too much..we were all watched
Seventies Soulchild: I enjoyed it. Wish the connections had been clearer though.
Selma: Who was the historian female from San Francisco college?
alt: Eva sheppard Wold PhD
Seventies Soulchild: Are you talking about the elderly lady. BTW she looked GREAT for 98 years old.
Selma: No the younger woman..
Seventies Soulchild: oh
Selma: Yes the 98 year old looked and sounded great
Seventies Soulchild: Yep had all of her teeth too! lol
Selma: Now that was not nice seventies
alt: Mrs. Cooper's ancestor is buried in a cemetery in OxFord, ohio near the campus of Miami Univ.
Seventies Soulchild: don't punish me for being honest. She looks better than people 20-30 years her junior.
Selma: Indenture of children both white and black children was not unusual
alt: nope, sure wasn't Selma
Seventies Soulchild: I mentioned that earlier. The explaination was very good on the reason for Susan Speed's children being indentured.
alt: and I read all of the time about "rewards' for those escaping indenture.... for a long time I thought they were always Black folk, but most of the time it is 'white' folks running out on their indenture.
vkn: I am enjoying this discussion y'all
Selma: I think up to 1760 or 1780's something children of free black woman were indentured until age 31 (gotta check the year) That was in VA
alt: yeah Selma, seems like Black indentures lasted much longer than 'white' indentures.. i most cases.
Selma: Maybe Gates should do a segment where Cohabitation Registers play a roll in the research
Daviss: Is next week the last show for gates?
alt: tanything to educate Selma
Daviss: I gotta check that
vkn: I think we might ask Barnetta to get us started on that topic y'all
Selma: But then he has to use documents based on where the research takes him
AYWalton: it might be good to expose Gates to Barnetta's work.
Daviss: that would be nice
AYWalton: and Ms. Cerni as well. I wonder if her team has used her work.
alt: that would be nice vkn .. to help us understand the ramifications of cohbitation vs marrige and the legal issues.
AYWalton: I think the legal issues are clear, though.
Selma: They take you to totally different record sets..
alt: was a slave marriage "legal'?
Selma: Only if if was legalized after Emancipation If you mean legal..that parents had control of their children and their fates..no
AYWalton: legal in the sense that owners could let their slaves do what they wanted. But not legal in the sense of the couple having rights and priveleges of being married.
vkn: We will do well to review and cite studies
alt: my understanding too Selma
AYWalton: I think that is understood.d and perhaps not easily researched. I have a document speaking to a "marriage"---a real wedding that an ancestor was allowed to have. But the husband was sold away from her, a few months later.
Selma: So I was not suprised when Gates made the comment
AYWalton: So the same owner could dissolve the relationship that he allowed to take place. it was Cerni who made the statement.
vkn: Very true AYW
AYWalton: From a research perspective yes she was right---there are no slave marriage ledgers to pull.
alt: that's where I have problems with a 'slave marrige' AYWalton .. could a married slave couple prevent the Master from separating them???? and/or their children... if not, what marrige rights did they have?
AYWalton: that is understood---from the outside perspective of law. But from the perspective of the PEOPLE involved---who considered themselves married---laws or not----there is a different mindset.
vkn: We see the evidence or claim of multiple relationships
AYWalton: from the law---the enslaved were not human. no rights, no privelges, no concern for them.
Daviss: so true
Selma: But the comment was not made about "mindset"..the comment was made regarding whether or not their are records that record these relationships as a marriage
AYWalton: from the inside---the PEOPLE---the ENSLAVED------they were married, they wer parents to their children, and even from the perspective on those who descend from the enslaved and who see life through THAT filter----such statements have a different sound.
alt: but for the sake of discussion weren't they considered "people" as in the 3/5 of a person compromise?
vkn: Trying to think of the Solomon Northrup details
AYWalton: as simple as the issue of a slave, or an eslaved person. exactly.
vkn: That would be an interesting one to discuss in my view.
AYWalton: as as one who descends from PEOPLE who were enslaved, I would state that relationships between slaves were not recorded systematically. I would not say that they did not marry. That suggests no desire for relationship. Not allowed to have a recognized relationship is what occurred.
Selma: I appreciate that AY..and that is why we are reacting the way we are..
AYWalton: that is true.
vkn: Also Acts of Alabama set many precedents with many being inconsistent with the other
alt: aren't all os us here a result on 'enslaved people"?
AYWalton: to say that if it was not on paper that it did not occur is what comes out.
vkn: "The Peculiar Institution"
AYWalton: indeed it was peculiar, for sure.
Daviss: you said it vkn
AYWalton: there is the question on the issue of from whose perspective is the story told.
alt: that's a universally accepted truth AYWalton ... the perspective of the story i most generally that of the writer.
Selma: But when I work with folks..and they start to ask me about marriage records..I have to tell them that they probably will not find any county or state registered marriages
alt: when the Lion becomes the hunter ......
vkn: Thus ther is "a" story and no "the" story
AYWalton: question, the lady also featured in the program last night---who was she? There was no background on her and how she became featured on the show.
alt: right vkn
Daviss: Speed descendant?
AYWalton: well, going to run, folks.
Daviss: I forget her name AYWalton but skip only said she was a friend of his as a intro
alt: take care
AYWalton: have a good day.
Selma: Me too..have a great day.
alt: Margaret Cooper ????
Daviss: was that the name alt?
vkn: Well for sure there are no absolutes
alt: and that is the absolute truth vkn LOL LOL LOL
Daviss: much work to do within the absolutes hehehe
vkn: My signature was recently questioned by my credit union
alt: is that right???
Daviss: changed from when you first got account
vkn: true the one today bears little resemblance to one even three years ago
Daviss: understood vkn
vkn: lol what a mess to straighten out
alt: has your signature changed much over the years..... mine has and I barely recognized my own handwriting anymore.
vkn: yes my right hand has problems writing
alt: me too vkn
Daviss: when I worked for the Clerk Of Superior Court and had to sigh documents all day long my signature changed lol
vkn: I bet daviss
Daviss: started out neat, changed to scribbles lol
alt: between 9:00 AM and 5:00 PM, huh Daviss? LOL
vkn: e three sigs on file with each financial institution
Daviss: yep lol
vkn: Check out the Bell Eureka post y'all
Daviss: A friend whose marriage lic I certified in 1967 showed it to me and boy was it different
vkn: A BIG opening for me and my research
Daviss: will do vkn
alt: well, I gotta go see the podiatrist today.. foot check time...
Daviss: have fun alt lol
alt: yeah, you bet daviss