2012-03-29 Skin Shades • Marriage
alt: hello Daviss, want some comapny??
Daviss: hi alt, how's it going?
alt: okay with me, how about you?
Daviss: company yes lol hi seventies
Seventies Soulchild: Hi alt and Daviss
alt: hello young lady.... Seventies Soulchild
Seventies Soulchild: You sound much better alt! What are you looking around for Daviss??/ lol
Daviss: lol lol
alt: getting there Seventies Soulchild, getting there thanks
Daviss: I was trying to pull that young lady to hit me
Seventies Soulchild: Ok I just want to put this out there. On facebook there was a discussion about marriages of AAs after Reconstruction. Some misinformation was put out there.
alt: on the 1940 census release and the site to view it
Daviss: how so seventies
alt: Oops, go ahead Seventies Soulchild
Seventies Soulchild: Well one of the issues was the marriages of FPOCs. One issue that was raised was that FPOCs could enter into legal marriages before 1866 But as you know, even those who were enslaved and got their official licenses after 1866 sometimes included the years of their slave marriages then someone said it cost $200 to marry in MS during Reconstruction... musti've been a single person... lol
Daviss: I have heard of $100 dollar bonds
alt: okay, true & it may depend on the State where they resided. MY earliest FPOC recorded marriage in Ohio was 1807.
Seventies Soulchild: I can see that in OH alt. However, this was in slave states.
Daviss: marriage bonds that is
alt: And folks are often confusing "marriage bonds" are a reqired cost for the marriage to take place.
Seventies Soulchild: Right alt.
Daviss: some states required a marriage bond some did not
alt: not so... the "bond' was to be paid IF the marriage DID NOT take place.
Daviss: ah ok
Seventies Soulchild: Also as in the case of Blair Underwood's family in VA, my family in AL FPOC after a certain point could not be in the state after about 1 year. Many southern states passed this law. Consequently, either loved ones were purchased as slaves or moved from county to county. This was illustrated in the book "Plain Folk of the South Revisited"
Daviss: I guess I have been wrong about that then because of the wording in an ark marriage bond
alt: that is a fact Seventies Soulchild, the reqirement to leave the State or become re-enslaved... it wasn't always 'enforced' tho'.
Seventies Soulchild: However, these marriages were not recognized as legal between FPOCs and perhaps their enslaved spouses. But it was the only option to keep them in the state legally. Ah so they had a law in Ohio like that as well. Interesting alt
Daviss: so what you are saying alt is that the money they put up was returned after marriage
alt: no that wasn't a law in Ohio Seventies Soulchild
Seventies Soulchild: oh. misread your statement. It was about $10 to get the license.
Daviss: alt are you and seventies saying that the money put up for a bond was returned after marriage
Seventies Soulchild: However, misinformation on this issue is running rampant on this thread. no
alt: dunno about the return of the 'bond' money Daviss.. but it was only pennies on the dollar.... 200.00 bond wasnt much of a 'cash deal", straighten them out Seventies Soulchild LOL
Daviss: in todays terms alt but what about then
alt: even then Daviss
Seventies Soulchild: lol alt I did. The posters over reached just a little bit on answering this simple question.
alt: today it is what 10% maybe for a cash bond.
Daviss: hmmm would that be recorded that bond money was returned then
Seventies Soulchild: You know they wanted to show how smart they are on the issue.. lo
alt: I doubt if it was returned Daviss, but don't quote me on that.
Seventies Soulchild: I don't know Daviss. Good question.
alt: bond money was like 'insurance' you pay for it, but aren't reimbursed if you don't need to use the insurance, right.
Seventies Soulchild: right. Alt here is the question from facebook: "While watching Finding Your Roots, the interesting fact that I had wondered about is marriages among slaves were not legal until after 1865, the question that I have is, my gr-gr-grandparents show on the 1880 census of Madison county, TN, their marriage as 1855 and they own over 80 plus acres of land, were they slaves or freed? Any suggestions on what to research to answer my questions..."
alt: on the marriage of FPOC to a slave in a slave State Seventies Soulchild, not sure that could happen... FPOC to FPOC happened all of the time ... and those marriages were legal.
Seventies Soulchild: Right, so what I was saying that there was a gray area where there wasn't a legal marriage between a FPOC and an enslaved person. In order for them to be together, the FPOC if possible would have had to purchase that 'spouse' as a slave.
alt: okay Seventies Soulchild, if the were slaves in 1855 they were co-habitants and possibly had their marriage 'legalized" following their freedom.
Daviss: Hi Selma!!
Seventies Soulchild: Exactly. The poster wasn't clear that in 1880 slavery had been abolished. At least that what it sounds like to me.
alt: I think that is how an FPOC & a slave marrige might have worked Seventies Soulchild
AYWalton: good afternoon, all.
Seventies Soulchild: Hi Selma and AYWalton
AYWalton: Howdy alt, Daviss, Mizz Selma, SoulChile
Daviss: Hi AYWalton
alt: Hello Selma & AYWalton
Selma: Afternoon everyone
Seventies Soulchild: I think so as well alt. Since those laws restricting FPOC to a time limit of living within a slave state.
alt: Seventies Soulchild, my NC ancestors are in the Somebody Knows My Name book... they had co-habiated for 29 years prior to their "marriage' being legalized in 1866.
Selma: It is possible that those folks were both slaves..the law which legalized marriages made prior to 1865..legalized them back to the time that they bbegan living together
Seventies Soulchild: These laws were a part of a black codes, alt.
alt: correct me please Selma, but I think the 'back dating' of the marriges was a method to establish inheritance for children born to parents who had been enslaved.
Seventies Soulchild: Right, but in my part of MS the records I've seen show marriages taking place during Reconstruction being officiated and legally standing as of say 1865. yet the census may reflect a time where the couple may have both been enslaved.
alt: true Seventies Soulchild...I'm saying in my case.. the marriage was "offici'al' as of 1866, but co-habitation and children were recognized prior to 1866.
Seventies Soulchild: What I also want to bring up is that before the CW the issue of FPOC being able to inherit and being 'legitmate children' came in in a case regarding my family members in about 1854.
Selma: That was the point of the cohabitation registers..I am taking this from Jimmy Walker's speech from 1993...basically providing AA's with the legal right which they had been denied: which are basically the right to inheritance This took place by legalizing marriages that had taken place during slavery
Seventies Soulchild: right however the FPOC and slave marriages fell through the cracks. http://thefamilygriot.blogspot.com/2011/04/inheritable-blood-case-of-free-tom.html One of the landmark cases regarding this.
Selma: Which is why VA also had another register..Register of children whose parents had ceased to live togehter which the father recognizes as his own Feb. 27, 1866..it is possible other states had as well
Seventies Soulchild: I haven't seen anything like that in MS as of yet Selma, but will keep an eye out for it.
Selma: That is what I am hoping for seventies..keep your eyes peeled.. LOL
Seventies Soulchild: I will, just got a new pair of eyeglasses... lol
Selma: Relationships between FPOC and slaves..children still took on status of the mother.. If the mother is enslaved so is the child
alt: somewhat different Seventies Soulchild, but here isa case of white slaveowner & his mates children being recognized and placed in his will for their inheritance following the freedom of their mother in 1866. http://mydatabase.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=mydatabase&view=78&ver=3931&storyid=19834 they never were 'legally' married slave owner & slave mate.
Seventies Soulchild: Absolutely Selma. I honestly think that they bent the rules though to mean ANYONE who had an enslalved parent would fall under that category.
bbenn: Hello Everyone!
alt: hello bbenn
AYWalton: hey there bbenn!!!!
Selma: Afternoon bbenn..
Seventies Soulchild: hi bbenn!
Seventies Soulchild: Ok I will be listening tonight. Selma I'm going to pick your brain... :}
Daviss: just reading article about a Tn marriage bond of $1250 in Tenn
alt: and it prevented the illegitimate children of the slave owner from being a part of the slave owners "heirs" Seventies Soulchild
Selma: Jeez I am already freakin out here..don't give me any more pressure
Daviss: Hi there bbenn
bbenn: Selma, looks as if you are getting ready for tonight!
Seventies Soulchild: Right..
AYWalton: oh that's right!!
bbenn: Hi Daviss - thanks for the note on yesterday.
Seventies Soulchild: LOL Selma you'll be fine!
AYWalton: It's tonight!! Selma time will fly by so quickly!
Selma: Actually taken a 1/2 hour break here...
alt: You'll be fine Selma .. I know you can operate well under pressure... I've heard about ya. LOL LOL
bbenn: Selma, we will have a good time.
Daviss: you are welcome bbenn.. didnt want people to think they missed Ms Selma lol
AYWalton: I know she still take to her bed after the show!
Seventies Soulchild: I was reading alt's NC family. Good read alt.
bbenn: Selma, just think about the fun we had talking the other night! Same dialogue with others listening.
alt: thanks Seventies Soulchild
Selma: Yes..I will...AY..plus will have my little darlin's this evening..totally unexpected, so got to put them to bed EARLY No bbenn, can't be same dialouge...I cuss
Seventies Soulchild: lol
bbenn: That's rightlol lol lol
AYWalton: you will be great!
alt: OOps, can't do that Selma
Selma: Bbenn will I be talking to you on my phone?
bbenn: Check out the script and message I sent to you.
Seventies Soulchild: AYWalton did a great job on this piece. http://usctchronicle.blogspot.com/2012/03/words-actions-and-life-of-spottswood.html
AYWalton: oh thanks, SoulChile! there is more to come---that was Part 1!!!
bbenn: Great job AYWalton:}
AYWalton: He was a truly fascinating man! thanks bbenn!
Seventies Soulchild: Wow I just loved that letter from Mr. Rice!
alt: bbenn is relaxing in her approach Selma. you'll do just fine, think of the phone conversation as just you and her...... altho' we will be lurking in the background just waiting to jump on you LOL lOL
Selma: I have it bbenn..printed it out and posted to my wall, so I wouldn't lose
AYWalton: I have a feeling however that Kitty Diggs never got the letter.
Seventies Soulchild: As we say he was fin'ta whip up on someone... lol
AYWalton: because they would have destroyed it. It was found among papers of Genl Rosencranz I believe. My suspicion is that it was never delivered.
bbenn: Hey folks..I found a newspaper article where one of my ancestors was described as a light griffe!
vkn: Good afternoon to all
Daviss: hello there vkn!
Seventies Soulchild: hello vkn
AYWalton: greetings vkn
bbenn: So, what color is griffe? -orange, red, or yellow?
Seventies Soulchild: ok I thought griffe was already 'light'.
AYWalton: I think it was often a matter of opinion.
vkn: Cheers to Selma and bbenn
alt: Seventies Soulchild, check out Bennie McRae's photos of the ceremony for Joshua Dunbar on FaceBook... that is the ceremony where my FB profile photo came from.
bbenn: Thanks vkn:}
AYWalton: Is Harry Belafonte tan griffe, or is Smokey Robinson shade griffe or was Duke Ellington kinda griffe? we have so many shades.
Seventies Soulchild: Ok according to the Louisiana and Colonial Louisana FB page, Griffe is someone who is yellow in complexion, but has very tightly coiled hair.
alt: very bright, nearly white bbenn ... a griffe
bbenn: ummm - I don't know.
Selma: Great posting AY..gotta read in more detail later Me too on the opinion part AY
AYWalton: so high yellow with kinky hair is griffe?
Seventies Soulchild: Also the griffe had 'ethnic' features.
AYWalton: you mean about the letter, Selma?
bbenn: Is it? Interesting.
Seventies Soulchild: yes bbenn
Selma: Yes, on the letter AY..
Seventies Soulchild: In theory a griffe could've been an albino
AYWalton: the officers, would not have allowed the ex slave to go and "sass" the white mistress.
Selma: and yes on the opinion part of what griffe or any of those things mean in actuality
alt: okay, I thought griffe was brighter than 'yellow' live and learn LOL
bbenn: Growing up in Nawlins', I had a lot of kinfolks who were griffe! AYWalton, sassing might bring on a beating!
AYWalton: they may have had some symapthies but allowing a Negro to sass a white person was probabaly stepping "over the line", I suspect, which is why the letter survived. It was never mailed. and after the war the slave holding family would have remembered it, and gotten Spottswood lynched.
Seventies Soulchild: Maybe.
bbenn: AYWalton - unfortunately that might be the outcome.
AYWalton: (Sometimes don't you wish you could find the slave holding descendants and say here---this was sent to your family.) ok fantasy moment is over.
Seventies Soulchild: LOL
bbenn: lol lol lol
Seventies Soulchild: I wonder if there are more letters in the collection?
AYWalton: but I do often wonder how these folks faired after slavery ended and how those descendants of noted cruel slave holders perceive their ancestors. perhaps.
Seventies Soulchild: they probably didn't even think about it
AYWalton: But Spottswood's spirit was especially refreshing and delicious to take in!
bbenn: The slave narratives included discussions about the slave owners.
Seventies Soulchild: yes it was AYWalton
AYWalton: true but the circumstances around which many of the narratives were made thwarted many honest stories. Many thought they were getting pensions, and some were interviewed by the very descendants of slave holders and overseers. So they could not call the slave holder an ornery sap sucker---these elderly folks could also be lynched---these interviews were made in the heart of the lynching era.
Seventies Soulchild: I would have to agree. Only a very few were honest. And those, notably one out of Ohio, were no longer living in the south.
bbenn: They could not say somethings because they may have still lived on the same property...just needed to be careful.
AYWalton: so you see statements like "he was a good massa---he only beat slaves when they needed it. Oh yea he sold my mama too."
bbenn: You could read through the lines...
alt: I wonder if the 'compexion" of the former slave in those narratives had any impact on their recollections of their days in slavery? Light complxion vs darker complexion of the slave.
AYWalton: sometimes yes, sometimes you wonder what they were thinking. What is not widely known is that many were under an impression that they were going to get pensions.
bbenn: Never thought of that...
AYWalton: so they were often kind in their choice of words.
Seventies Soulchild: What about those slaves who knew that their father was the enslaver? And the beatings they took from the "Missus"?
bbenn: How would you know the complexion? This might require a little more research...
AYWalton: what about them, SoulChile?
Selma: Folks..I have to run have a great day
Seventies Soulchild: Just saying that there are a few narratives like that.
bbenn: Bye Selma...
Daviss: bye Selma
Seventies Soulchild: Oh its almost 1. wow time flies when you are having good discussion. See y'all tonight at 9:00pm EST.
alt: I've seen photos of those in the Ohio Historical collection of slave narratives, about 27 or so who lived here in Springfield, Ohio bbenn ... their stories vary a lot depending on the 'complexion".
Selma: Before I leave.. Bernice should I send links to things I will be talking about directly to you this afternoon
vkn: til later selma
bbenn: Yes, please forward the links..thanks
Selma: Oops afternoon vkn Bye folks
bbenn: bye everyone! trying to find someone in the newspaper...
alt: good luck
AYWalton: well I am working on Part 2 of my Spottswood story and need to go out as well. Have a good day.
alt: 1940 census.. again I see www.archives.gov as the site that will go online as of 2 April, rather than archives.com I'm confused, but will have it together by 2 April LOL
Daviss: I think I put it in my favs also alt did you see what AYWalton put up yesterday in chat
Daviss: the actual link for the census its the dot com one I believe
alt: yeah and I wnt to the .gov site and saw where they stated they would be online at 9:00 AM on 2 April
Daviss: yes but that was just an announcement
alt: okay Daviss guess I mis-read
Daviss: soon lol lol lol dont think I want to get up at 6 am and search lol
Daviss: I might miss taking tyler to school lol
alt: I took Cynthia's advice from here posting and went to the Piqua, Ohio city directories from 1936-1940 for correct addresses.
Daviss: yes I have been doing that also alt
alt: on Ancestry.com
Daviss: however the majority of mine are rural folks that never moved therefor not in the city !
vkn: see yall 2nite
Daviss: alt I only have about 5 people that moved out of the country that I know of.. M
alt: good luck Daviss. think I'll take aniat to the Casino this PM for a little "action" LOL lOL Anita
Daviss: lol good luck to ya
alt: okay, bye